8 ms·

I married an Austrian while living with her in Texas. I made exactly zero plans before moving. She had the better degree by far so it only made sense to move to

I married an Austrian while living with her in Texas. I made exactly zero plans before moving. She had the better degree by far so it only made sense to move to Austria. Getting a job was easy by local standards due to a tight local market for programmers. Getting through German classes to earn the permanent residency was the toughest part. I would never consider moving back to the USA. I was always a sceptic of the 'Greatest country on Earth' rhetoric. But now that I've lived in a functioning society for 10 years, it's clear to me that the USA is basically a "3rd world" country. EDIT: I'm using "3rd world" here for lack of a better term indicating general decline and emmiseration.

mdp2021 5y ago
What are the main differences you see? How would you describe the local population? While statistic indicators are very high compared to most other countries, horror stories can still be heard ("this office showing lack of common sense" etc.). Have you identified sources of high cultural production - or does it seem a land to you, say, "focussed on business but dismissing other factors"? Very interest for practical reasons (as it may transpire).
- alangibson 5y ago
  I don't even know where to begin on differences. A big one is how much more orderly basically everything is, from government processes to condition of the streets. Overt politeness is more common. People are generally more relaxed to the point that it annoyed me for years. I attribute this to the lack of any concept of 'hustle' and not being worried about dying in poverty. I think a huge amount of the American personality comes from a subconscious anxiety over how precarious we live. You're never more than 20 paces from a beer; I just had one at 11am at a fleamarket for kids clothes. It's the least business focused place I've ever been. Many large businesses lock their doors for 2 weeks in the summer. I've had other Americans tell me directly that I'm making that up it's so shocking to them. When I worked for a Dutch company, one of their visiting engineers couldn't believe that the office was nearly empty at 1pm on Friday. If you're the wild type, it's not the place for you. People are very mild mannered. It took a long time for me chill out, having come from a Texas party-loving town. I tell people it's a great place to be 35.
  - drstewart 5y ago
    Yeah, I don't think the idea of not being within 20 steps of a beer makes a country 3rd world. Sorry, but that's pretty insulting to actual people living in poverty. Then again, all in all it's pretty privileged to be able to have such a sheltered view of the world, so good on ya.
    - alangibson 5y ago
      Ha! What are you talking about? That comment was in response to a question about differences between the countries. The USA is a 3rd world country because we allow people to literally and figuratively rot on the street. There are many others of course... Can I assume from your aggrieved attitude and uncharitable reading that you're a fellow American?
      - drstewart 5y ago
        When the top thing you can think of as the main difference is that you can get blasted at 11am in a foreign country, the "uncharitable reading" is that you're an alcoholic, not that you're a sheltered emigrant that doesn't know what a real third world country is like.
        alangibson 5y ago
        I'm feeling like you're trolling now, but I'll bite anyway: 1. The one line you are harping on is half way down a list of things, not at the top. 2. It's obviously just a literary indulgence to add some local color 3. I've spent 2.5 years traveling rough and solo through the Global South which I hope counts for something. I'm gonna guess you consider any kind of pleasure travel to be privilege though.
        mdp2021 5y ago
        The parent comment asked «How would you describe the local population», to which it was replied «People are generally more relaxed to the point that it annoyed me for years», also instanced to the "anytime beer". The reasoning flows.
4ad 5y ago
Funny, I live in Austria and I wish to emigrate to the US. I consider Europe, and Austria in particular a living nightmare.
- alangibson 5y ago
  Why? It could be it just doesn't suit your personality. If you a 'rise and grind' type of person, I can see it being hell.
  - 4ad 5y ago
    Well I could enumerate all the material things that are worse in Europe and better in the US (I have lived in the US enough time to have an informed opinion), but that would get old, and in the end it would miss the point, as I could just as well enumerate countless things which are better in Europe compared to US. The real issue (which causes all the above differences anyway) is cultural. What matters is not comparing things, but comparing people, their attitude, principles, and way of life. For me, Europe is an socialist dystopia which punishes individualism, risk-taking, private businesses, and where people don't have a passion for much, no hobbies, and no aspirations. For any particular thing that people do, for example what hobbies they might have, but this could be extended to almost anything, what car do they drive, etc, anything that can be analyzed statistically you will find that the distribution for people in the US is far wider than the distribution for people in the EU. Whatever it is that interests you and is outside the median, you will find that there are people in the US who share your interests, but you will likely won't find the same to be true in europe. The distribution of anything in europe is narrower. Let me give you a silly example. On average, americans eat far worse cheese then europeans, but if cheese is your thing you will easily (!!) find better cheese in the US compared to the best cheese I can find here in Europe. But that's not all, if you explain this to an average american who isn't into cheese, they will understand that cheese is your thing, just like they have their own peculiar things they are into. But I will not be able to explain the same thing to an european, all I would get is "what's wrong with our cheese?" and "you are stupid because our cheese is great". This is not a thought experiment. I have done this exact experiment with cheese with many americans and many europeans. As silly as the example is, it illustrates the point that europeans simply cannot accept that you might care about things they don't care about while americans understand this idea very well, even if they don't understand the thing. Let's take another example, general aviation. It's an expensive and rare hobby even in the US, but even middle-class people can partake in it, and they do, it's a thing with communities associated with it. It's not a thing here in europe. It's extraordinarily rare, and it's extraordinarily expensive -- not relative to european incomes, but in absolute terms -- GA is fantastically more expensive in europe compared to the US, so you have to be made out of money, and if you do it at all, it's not a community thing. Just search youtube for anything, any kind of activity that you are interested in, and you will find that the majority of videos are produced by americans. I posit this is not a coincidence. Someone might claim that's because all these activities cost money, and it's not simply the fact that europeans are not interested in these things, but rather that they don't have enough money to do them. And therein lies the problem. The reason europeans don't have money is because doing business here is a terrible endeavour stiffed at every step of the way. People don't really start businesess, and starting a businesses is shed in a negative light societally. People see their bosses as their enemy (from which they require mandatory (!!) union participation to protect yourself from). Mind you, not any particular boss they might have, which might be terrible as a person, but the whole concept of "us workers" vs. "they the rich people". Of course, your direct manager is very unlikely to be rich, but in most people's minds the bosses are "part of the oppresing class" and they are the enemy that the state must protect themselves from. The idea that you might even become a boss one day, say by starting a business is ideologically rejected. The regular people are the good people and they don't join the enemy by becoming the oppresor. I could go on and on, but the gist of it is that I have trouble finding people here in europe who I share values with, but I have no such trouble in the US.
BrandiATMuhkuh 5y ago
Tip for any EU citizens marrying a non EU citizens. For the EU citizen, make sure you execute your European right before your partner applies for residency. That way your partner does not have to learn the local language etc. The reason for that is, that EU family law is pretty liberal. And EU law is "higher" then local law. But that only applies if you executed your European right. To execute your European right, you must have lived for 3 month in another EU country. Or simply marry in an other EU country which is not your own country. I'm writing this from experience. As this was the way my wife (Saudi) and I (Austrian) did it. I did first study in Denmark. Therefore executing my EU right. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/documents-formalities/non-eu-family-members-residence-card/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/documents-fo...
- erdo 5y ago
  I think this is referred to as the Surinder Singh principle, here's more about it: https://www.freemovement.org.uk/surinder-singh-immigration-route/ https://www.freemovement.org.uk/surinder-singh-immigration-r...
  - BrandiATMuhkuh 5y ago
    Thank you. Good to know. For me most interesting about this situation is, that most people I know, think they are EU citizens just because they live in an EU country. But that's not really true, until they executed their EU rights first.
    - erdo 5y ago
      I agree, it was certainly very surprising to me when I find out
Shorel 5y ago
By definition, not a 3d world country. But it is a rich country full of poor people.
- seoulmetro 5y ago
  The '3rd world country' definition is outdated for modern usage anyway. The US is definitely not on the same tier of standard of living as the rest of the world, that's for sure. It fell well down from the first place a while ago. Shame really.

mdp2021 5y ago

What are the main differences you see? How would you describe the local population? While statistic indicators are very high compared to most other countries, horror stories can still be heard ("this office showing lack of common sense" etc.). Have you identified sources of high cultural production - or does it seem a land to you, say, "focussed on business but dismissing other factors"? Very interest for practical reasons (as it may transpire).

alangibson 5y ago
I don't even know where to begin on differences. A big one is how much more orderly basically everything is, from government processes to condition of the streets. Overt politeness is more common. People are generally more relaxed to the point that it annoyed me for years. I attribute this to the lack of any concept of 'hustle' and not being worried about dying in poverty. I think a huge amount of the American personality comes from a subconscious anxiety over how precarious we live. You're never more than 20 paces from a beer; I just had one at 11am at a fleamarket for kids clothes. It's the least business focused place I've ever been. Many large businesses lock their doors for 2 weeks in the summer. I've had other Americans tell me directly that I'm making that up it's so shocking to them. When I worked for a Dutch company, one of their visiting engineers couldn't believe that the office was nearly empty at 1pm on Friday. If you're the wild type, it's not the place for you. People are very mild mannered. It took a long time for me chill out, having come from a Texas party-loving town. I tell people it's a great place to be 35.
- drstewart 5y ago
  Yeah, I don't think the idea of not being within 20 steps of a beer makes a country 3rd world. Sorry, but that's pretty insulting to actual people living in poverty. Then again, all in all it's pretty privileged to be able to have such a sheltered view of the world, so good on ya.
  - alangibson 5y ago
    Ha! What are you talking about? That comment was in response to a question about differences between the countries. The USA is a 3rd world country because we allow people to literally and figuratively rot on the street. There are many others of course... Can I assume from your aggrieved attitude and uncharitable reading that you're a fellow American?
    - drstewart 5y ago
      When the top thing you can think of as the main difference is that you can get blasted at 11am in a foreign country, the "uncharitable reading" is that you're an alcoholic, not that you're a sheltered emigrant that doesn't know what a real third world country is like.
      - alangibson 5y ago
        I'm feeling like you're trolling now, but I'll bite anyway: 1. The one line you are harping on is half way down a list of things, not at the top. 2. It's obviously just a literary indulgence to add some local color 3. I've spent 2.5 years traveling rough and solo through the Global South which I hope counts for something. I'm gonna guess you consider any kind of pleasure travel to be privilege though.
      - mdp2021 5y ago
        The parent comment asked «How would you describe the local population», to which it was replied «People are generally more relaxed to the point that it annoyed me for years», also instanced to the "anytime beer". The reasoning flows.

4ad 5y ago

Funny, I live in Austria and I wish to emigrate to the US. I consider Europe, and Austria in particular a living nightmare.

alangibson 5y ago
Why? It could be it just doesn't suit your personality. If you a 'rise and grind' type of person, I can see it being hell.
- 4ad 5y ago
  Well I could enumerate all the material things that are worse in Europe and better in the US (I have lived in the US enough time to have an informed opinion), but that would get old, and in the end it would miss the point, as I could just as well enumerate countless things which are better in Europe compared to US. The real issue (which causes all the above differences anyway) is cultural. What matters is not comparing things, but comparing people, their attitude, principles, and way of life. For me, Europe is an socialist dystopia which punishes individualism, risk-taking, private businesses, and where people don't have a passion for much, no hobbies, and no aspirations. For any particular thing that people do, for example what hobbies they might have, but this could be extended to almost anything, what car do they drive, etc, anything that can be analyzed statistically you will find that the distribution for people in the US is far wider than the distribution for people in the EU. Whatever it is that interests you and is outside the median, you will find that there are people in the US who share your interests, but you will likely won't find the same to be true in europe. The distribution of anything in europe is narrower. Let me give you a silly example. On average, americans eat far worse cheese then europeans, but if cheese is your thing you will easily (!!) find better cheese in the US compared to the best cheese I can find here in Europe. But that's not all, if you explain this to an average american who isn't into cheese, they will understand that cheese is your thing, just like they have their own peculiar things they are into. But I will not be able to explain the same thing to an european, all I would get is "what's wrong with our cheese?" and "you are stupid because our cheese is great". This is not a thought experiment. I have done this exact experiment with cheese with many americans and many europeans. As silly as the example is, it illustrates the point that europeans simply cannot accept that you might care about things they don't care about while americans understand this idea very well, even if they don't understand the thing. Let's take another example, general aviation. It's an expensive and rare hobby even in the US, but even middle-class people can partake in it, and they do, it's a thing with communities associated with it. It's not a thing here in europe. It's extraordinarily rare, and it's extraordinarily expensive -- not relative to european incomes, but in absolute terms -- GA is fantastically more expensive in europe compared to the US, so you have to be made out of money, and if you do it at all, it's not a community thing. Just search youtube for anything, any kind of activity that you are interested in, and you will find that the majority of videos are produced by americans. I posit this is not a coincidence. Someone might claim that's because all these activities cost money, and it's not simply the fact that europeans are not interested in these things, but rather that they don't have enough money to do them. And therein lies the problem. The reason europeans don't have money is because doing business here is a terrible endeavour stiffed at every step of the way. People don't really start businesess, and starting a businesses is shed in a negative light societally. People see their bosses as their enemy (from which they require mandatory (!!) union participation to protect yourself from). Mind you, not any particular boss they might have, which might be terrible as a person, but the whole concept of "us workers" vs. "they the rich people". Of course, your direct manager is very unlikely to be rich, but in most people's minds the bosses are "part of the oppresing class" and they are the enemy that the state must protect themselves from. The idea that you might even become a boss one day, say by starting a business is ideologically rejected. The regular people are the good people and they don't join the enemy by becoming the oppresor. I could go on and on, but the gist of it is that I have trouble finding people here in europe who I share values with, but I have no such trouble in the US.

BrandiATMuhkuh 5y ago

Tip for any EU citizens marrying a non EU citizens. For the EU citizen, make sure you execute your European right before your partner applies for residency. That way your partner does not have to learn the local language etc. The reason for that is, that EU family law is pretty liberal. And EU law is "higher" then local law. But that only applies if you executed your European right. To execute your European right, you must have lived for 3 month in another EU country. Or simply marry in an other EU country which is not your own country. I'm writing this from experience. As this was the way my wife (Saudi) and I (Austrian) did it. I did first study in Denmark. Therefore executing my EU right. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/documents-formalities/non-eu-family-members-residence-card/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/documents-fo...

erdo 5y ago
I think this is referred to as the Surinder Singh principle, here's more about it: https://www.freemovement.org.uk/surinder-singh-immigration-route/ https://www.freemovement.org.uk/surinder-singh-immigration-r...
- BrandiATMuhkuh 5y ago
  Thank you. Good to know. For me most interesting about this situation is, that most people I know, think they are EU citizens just because they live in an EU country. But that's not really true, until they executed their EU rights first.
  - erdo 5y ago
    I agree, it was certainly very surprising to me when I find out

Shorel 5y ago

By definition, not a 3d world country. But it is a rich country full of poor people.

seoulmetro 5y ago
The '3rd world country' definition is outdated for modern usage anyway. The US is definitely not on the same tier of standard of living as the rest of the world, that's for sure. It fell well down from the first place a while ago. Shame really.