5 ms·

The cost doesn't come from energy requirements. It comes from materials. Hydrogen corrodes or escapes most things.

jacquesm 5y ago
And embrittles a lot of others. And if you want to use fuel cell tech membrane fouling is yet another problem to deal with.
kumarvvr 5y ago
My understanding is expensive material for hydrogen production was to increase the efficiency of the system (because energy is costly and not from renewable sources). With the proliferation of installed solar capacity, and availability of low cost renewable energy, the economics of H2 production allow for use of lower efficient systems, with focus on reducing exotic materials in the system.
- glogla 5y ago
  Solar makes up 2 % or world electricity. Wind 5 %. Coal and natural gas together make up 61 %. Where is this solar capacity? Where is this available low cost renewable energy? We are decades away from making the renewables our main electricity source if there were massive investment into it, meanwhile we are building new coal and gas plants instead. And the electricity demand is still going up. Even if things go way better than anyone can predict, we will never have enough energy to throw it away on inefficient hydrogen, not in a lifetime of anyone currently on Hacker News. The whole H2 hype is just shilling for oil and gas, whether the people perpetuating it know it or not.
  - pfdietz 5y ago
    Someone doesn't really understand exponential growth. Of course we can have the capacity, after just a few more doublings.
  - jhgb 5y ago
    > Solar makes up 2 % or world electricity. ...in 2018. It's 2021 already. In 2020 solar made up something like 3.2% (https://www.worldenergydata.org/world-electricity-generation/ https://www.worldenergydata.org/world-electricity-generation...). That alone is an increase of 0.6% per year. Even if nothing changed about PV buildup, it would still be headed for 15% in 2040. This rate is likely to increase, though.
pfdietz 5y ago
The materials problems of hydrogen are overstated. The world produces and consumes 700 cubic kilometers (at STP) of hydrogen each year; this stuff is contained in something.
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  No, the hydrogen is mostly consumed for industrial processes immediately after it is produced.
  - pfdietz 5y ago
    The equipment that makes the hydrogen, the equipment where the hydrogen is used, the pipes connecting these, the valves and sensors and pumps touching the hydrogen -- all these work in many places around the world, constantly. If hydrogen were the universal solvent ruining anything it touches, as the pearl clutchers on the internet seem to say, this wouldn't be possible. SOME materials have trouble with hydrogen. But this is a problem that can be, and is, worked around as needed. It's a nuisance, not a showstopper.
    - BobbyJo 5y ago
      The reason it's cost effective in those circumstances is because it's produced from hydrogen rich fossil fuels. If you want to use renewable energy to produce it, you'd likely have to fall back onto electrolysis, which is cost prohibitive because of material cost. If you check out DOE research, they point out capital necessary for materials as the factor that needs to come down, as efficiency is already > 50%: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/20004-cost-electrolytic-hydrogen-production.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi0sar9iL7zAhV-GVkFHSNLAVkQFnoECBUQBg&usg=AOvVaw0NMnlH5q3POh53QY6G-yWs https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/... If you just want 'hydrogen from any source' and aren't trying to get off fossil fuels, then yes, the materials costs are that horrible. But I don't believe that's where anyone is going with this conversation.
      - pfdietz 5y ago

And embrittles a lot of others. And if you want to use fuel cell tech membrane fouling is yet another problem to deal with.

kumarvvr 5y ago

My understanding is expensive material for hydrogen production was to increase the efficiency of the system (because energy is costly and not from renewable sources). With the proliferation of installed solar capacity, and availability of low cost renewable energy, the economics of H2 production allow for use of lower efficient systems, with focus on reducing exotic materials in the system.

glogla 5y ago
Solar makes up 2 % or world electricity. Wind 5 %. Coal and natural gas together make up 61 %. Where is this solar capacity? Where is this available low cost renewable energy? We are decades away from making the renewables our main electricity source if there were massive investment into it, meanwhile we are building new coal and gas plants instead. And the electricity demand is still going up. Even if things go way better than anyone can predict, we will never have enough energy to throw it away on inefficient hydrogen, not in a lifetime of anyone currently on Hacker News. The whole H2 hype is just shilling for oil and gas, whether the people perpetuating it know it or not.
- pfdietz 5y ago
  Someone doesn't really understand exponential growth. Of course we can have the capacity, after just a few more doublings.
- jhgb 5y ago
  > Solar makes up 2 % or world electricity. ...in 2018. It's 2021 already. In 2020 solar made up something like 3.2% (https://www.worldenergydata.org/world-electricity-generation/ https://www.worldenergydata.org/world-electricity-generation...). That alone is an increase of 0.6% per year. Even if nothing changed about PV buildup, it would still be headed for 15% in 2040. This rate is likely to increase, though.

pfdietz 5y ago

The materials problems of hydrogen are overstated. The world produces and consumes 700 cubic kilometers (at STP) of hydrogen each year; this stuff is contained in something.

Manuel_D 5y ago
No, the hydrogen is mostly consumed for industrial processes immediately after it is produced.
- pfdietz 5y ago
  The equipment that makes the hydrogen, the equipment where the hydrogen is used, the pipes connecting these, the valves and sensors and pumps touching the hydrogen -- all these work in many places around the world, constantly. If hydrogen were the universal solvent ruining anything it touches, as the pearl clutchers on the internet seem to say, this wouldn't be possible. SOME materials have trouble with hydrogen. But this is a problem that can be, and is, worked around as needed. It's a nuisance, not a showstopper.
  - BobbyJo 5y ago
    The reason it's cost effective in those circumstances is because it's produced from hydrogen rich fossil fuels. If you want to use renewable energy to produce it, you'd likely have to fall back onto electrolysis, which is cost prohibitive because of material cost. If you check out DOE research, they point out capital necessary for materials as the factor that needs to come down, as efficiency is already > 50%: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/20004-cost-electrolytic-hydrogen-production.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi0sar9iL7zAhV-GVkFHSNLAVkQFnoECBUQBg&usg=AOvVaw0NMnlH5q3POh53QY6G-yWs https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/... If you just want 'hydrogen from any source' and aren't trying to get off fossil fuels, then yes, the materials costs are that horrible. But I don't believe that's where anyone is going with this conversation.
    - pfdietz 5y ago