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Facebook engineers lurking on HN reading this: you are complicit in things like this by developing the technical infrastructure that makes it all possible. If y
by Ansil849 5y ago
Facebook engineers lurking on HN reading this: you are complicit in things like this by developing the technical infrastructure that makes it all possible. If your motivation is money, you can absolutely find that employment elsewhere.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- shepherdjerred 5y agoThe responsibility lies with the company, not the cogs who are there for a paycheck.
- slickrick216 5y agoNah everyone has a choice. Facebook engineers choose theirs. Don’t infantilise them.
- shepherdjerred 5y agoWhat country do you pay taxes to? Has that country done anything morally wrong since you lived there? If so, why do you still pay them taxes?
- slickrick216 5y agoThe justice system holds a gun to my head. Threatening my life and liberty and that of my family.
- chii 5y agoThe economic system holds a gun to my head. Threatening my life and financial liberty and that of my family.
- cloogshicer 5y agoBecause poor FB engineers have no other economically viable options, right?
- TechBro8615 5y agoTax status is determined by factors that are (close to) non-optional, such as birth location or country of residency. Employment status – especially at the top strata of a high-skill industry – is determined entirely by individual choice. You must first choose to apply to the company, then choose to accept the job, and then continue to make the same choice each day you don’t quit. Every single engineer at Facebook could walk out the door and get a new job within a week. But if you’re a US taxpayer, good luck renouncing your citizenship. There is no legitimate comparison between the moral obligations of which megacorp direct deposits $10k a month into your bank account, and which geographical lottery you won based on your mother’s birthing location.
- ummonk 5y agoYou make it sound like Facebook engineers are unable to work elsewhere.
- phy6 5y ago"They're just doing what they were told to do"
- denton-scratch 5y agoSoftware engineers earn pretty fat paychecks; they don't have to check their ethics as they enter their workplace. I once refused to work on a project for the USAF, and I think that decision limited my pay and promotion. But I still own my own home, and have an adequate pension. Isn't "I'm just a cog" what the defendants at Nuremberg have usually said?
- AdrianB1 5y agoShaming does not work, otherwise FB would have no engineers at all; the fact that FB still exists is a proof it does not work, so what is the point?
- Ansil849 5y agoI genuinely feel like shaming and social ostracization should be way more commonly used. If suddenly you stop hanging out with friends who work at outfits like Facebook, if they stop being invited to dinners, are socially shunned, then I genuinely believe it will have a net positive effect. The problem is that bad behavior is normalized and rationalized in our society, 'everyone needs a paycheck.' This legitimizes working for companies like this.
- AdrianB1 5y agoMy point exactly (your last 2 sentences).
- pnt12 5y agoAnd they'll get new friends. I doubt that shaming individuals works. But having thoughtful discourse about it is probably much better - let people hear the arguments and make up their mind. With this being said, I do find it a waste that some of the best minds in the world are working towards ads and engagement businesses. Having a tool for global communication is wonderful, but their unethical behaviors are unexcusable.
- speedybird 5y ago> I doubt that shaming individuals works. But having thoughtful discourse about it is probably much better - let people hear the arguments and make up their mind. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Have a nice long thoughtful conversation with your friend about why you disapprove of what they're doing with their life, offer to help them find a new job if you're so inclined, but cut contact if/when they refuse to reform. Tell others what you've done and encourage them to do the same. Shaming almost certainly does work, otherwise humans wouldn't be so inclined to try it all the time. I'm quite certain that shaming is a tactic baked into our social instincts by evolution.
- laweijfmvo 5y agoDisclaimer: Facebook employee. This is a perfectly valid opinion to make, but I think everyone doing so should disclose where they work. Additionally, I would hope they apply the same scrutiny to all companies that are harmful or don’t provide value; for me, that would include (non-exhaustive list): tobacco, alcohol, soda, fast food, junk food, high-frequency trading, gambling, and any company that is currently not or does not have an actionable plan to become carbon neutral, and that’s just off the top of my head. Or we could just let people (and by extension advertisers) decide for themselves.
- ummonk 5y agoOf those companies, the only one that's a big employer of HN audiences would be HFT companies, which are more in the space of "don't provide value" than "harmful". Arguably most social media is actively harmful.
- Ansil849 5y agoI definitely agree with your point that Facebook is not a singular problematic entity and not even in a singular problematic industry, it's just the one this thread is about. > Or we could just let people (and by extension advertisers) decide for themselves. That's the idea of shunning though. People can make their own decisions to work wherever they please, and in response to these choices other people can likewise decide to disassociate with them.
- laweijfmvo 5y agoFair enough, and I accept the shunning as a legitimate action :) I’m also against the action taken against the extension developer, both in principle and as someone who unfollowed everyone, one at a time. p.s. next time you reply to a FB employee please begin your message with un-shun and end it with re-shun
- dboreham 5y ago\begin{un-shun} \end{un-shun}
- jonas21 5y agoThis comment is the sort of toxicity that's become commonplace on other social platforms (including Facebook) and that I come to HN to avoid.
- cybernautique 5y agoHighly agree in the means, not the ends. I'm also rabidly anti-FB, to the point it's had a detrimental impact on my social life. It's a cost I knowingly walked into and one I'm happy to bear. Take a look at my public posts: I categoricaly think FB and their employees to be immoral. Shunning is likewise immoral.
- ByteJockey 5y ago> Shunning is likewise immoral. So, I have to ask. If shunning is off the table, what's the social punishment for people who do shun?
- cybernautique 5y agoI tell them that I think they're immoral, and then proceed to not call for their shunning.
- Ansil849 5y agoYou have it backwards. This is a _response_ to toxicity and people willingly associating and enabling this toxicity.
- NAR8789 5y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc toxicity tends to come in symbiotic pairs
- unshundang 5y agoYou are a cunt. How about that for avoiding reality?
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- victorvation 5y agoFacebook engineers on HN are not sending out C&Ds.
- Ansil849 5y agoNo, but: > you are complicit in things like this by developing the technical infrastructure that makes it all possible
- dom96 5y ago> If your motivation is money, you can absolutely find that employment elsewhere. Genuinely asking: what alternatives are there that HN doesn’t consider “evil” and can provide the same remuneration and working environment? Also consider that not every FB employee works in the Bay Area.
- Oddskar 5y agoHow about /not/ getting the same amount of compensation, and being able to spend every day making the world a better place (or at least, not a worse one)? I have made that choice. For me it was a simple one to make.