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As a European living and working in the US: your comparison is very shortsighted. European countries literally have no legal concept of at-will employment. The

As a European living and working in the US: your comparison is very shortsighted. European countries literally have no legal concept of at-will employment. They have strong social nets that make quitting your job much easier, and more prevalent unions that fight to improve working conditions (all of these things are, gasp, political! incidentally) By comparison employment in the US is messed up enough that if you leave your job you lose your health insurance. Companies with great policies can sometimes retain employees on that basis alone! Is it really any wonder that “politics” ends up being an issue in the workplace when your employer literally controls your access to healthcare? All of this stuff is emblematic of a deeply unhealthy relationship with employment in the US. Despite widespread agreement that this arrangement is bad, the US political system is broken enough that changing it feels all but impossible. CEOs like Brian are taking a hard stance against the effects while ignoring the causes. You’re right that such a thing is only possible in the US, you’re just wrong about the reasons why.

Zababa 5y ago
You make at least three times as much as people in Europe, while the cost of living isn't three times higher. You can save this money in case something bad happens. If you're a minimum wage worker that's a different story. But we're talking about software engineers here. A standing desk and wrist exercises solve most of your possible work-related injuries.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- aiisjustanif 5y ago
  Not everyone at tech company is a software engineer or makes that type of money.
5560675260 5y ago
> Is it really any wonder that “politics” ends up being an issue in the workplace? It's still a wonder for me, I don't follow your reasoning at all. How does this force people into being antagonistic and fighting over politics in the workplace? If anything, this should put a pressure on workers to not stand out and keep their mouth shut, so that they wouldn't risk loosing coveted employer-provided insurance.
fleddr 5y ago
I think we're mixing up different political topics here. The one I think you're talking about is the US workers' struggle to defend or increase basic worker rights. Which indeed is a political struggle of workers versus management. If I'm not mistaken, the Coinbase case is about social justice types of topics like feminism, BLM, trans rights, colonialism, the like.
- afavour 5y ago
  My point is that positions like Brian's require there to be a clear and bright line between "political" and "not political". I think it's at least slightly easier to draw that line in European workplaces where the nature of employment is not as politically fraught. Just to take two of your examples: feminism and trans rights. Both have healthcare implications. Your employer controls your healthcare. Should the healthcare provided by your employer cover birth control? Abortion? Conversion therapy? This mix is inevitable.
  - fleddr 5y ago
    We might as well call it what it is: troublemakers. People that are so politically activist at work that they dis-proportionally impact the business. By sowing division, distracting from the work, spoiling morale. And sometimes worse, like stealing data or airing dirty laundry publicly. I'm not going to touch the morality of it, I'm merely painting the picture of what it is. There's more companies where this is an issue, Google had plenty such incidents, Basecamp, Facebook, the like.
    - afavour 5y ago
      I can't help but feel like you've made your mind up and aren't interested in listening to any other perspective. Your reply addresses absolutely nothing in the post it's replying to. Perhaps we just leave the conversation here, I don't see it going anywhere fruitful. I wish you all the best.
      - fleddr 5y ago
dntrkv 5y ago
I don't see how at-will employment is related here. This is Coinbase. The vast majority of the employees there are not stuck in a job they wish they could leave but can't. These are some of the most privileged employees in the world. The bigger issue is like the OP stated, the state of politics in the US. How does at-will employment relate to issues like not working with certain government institutions because you disagree with their purpose? Coinbase isn't trying to avoid political arguments over healthcare, they're trying to avoid employees rallying together and changing the company to further their personal political beliefs.
jsiepkes 5y ago
Aside from that your comparison with Europe is quite flawed (there are plenty "at-will employment" type of constructions possible here, you don't get unemployment benefits if you quit yourself, etc.) these are all tech workers who have new employers lining up to hire them. They are not blue collar workers in an Amazon warehouse who have to relieve themselves in a bottle and get terminated by an algorithm for failing to meet quota's. But besides all that I fail to see how any of what you just said are arguments to make the workplace a political Twitter-style fight pit?
bob229 5y ago
If you think Britain has a “strong social net” then you are a total ignoramus
gruez 5y ago
I don't get it. You argue that employment is more tenuous at US companies for various reasons... therefore employees want to stick their necks out by engaging in politics? Shouldn't we expect the opposite?
- aiisjustanif 5y ago
  Breaking points in history are still breaking points.
KKKKkkkk1 5y ago
> Companies with great policies can sometimes retain employees on that basis alone! So I recently quit a FAANG and they sent me a COBRA notice with the cost of their insurance benefit. You can get great FAANG insurance for about $10k a year, which is peanuts for a Silicon Valley engineer. We need to dispel the myth that Silicon Valley engineers are working for health insurance.
- muench 5y ago
  COBRA means you’re still getting insurance through your (former) employer. How much does the same insurance benefit cost if you buy it fully on your own? In my experience you can’t even buy a similar plan as an individual. And definitely not at the same price.
  - cyounkins 5y ago
    Apples to apples comparison is very hard because the plans are all different. But having bought insurance from the state marketplace it two US states, I'd say around $500 USD/month.
  - moosedev 5y ago
    This matches my recent experience. I researched plans on Washington state's health marketplace and found that while the available plans were generally much cheaper than COBRA, their coverage for out-of-network or out-of-state care was limited (e.g. "emergency" care only, where the definition of emergency is vague and up to the insurer). And even if you are careful to get taken to an "in-network" hospital, there are plenty of horror stories about inadvertently getting treated by an "out-of-network" provider while inside and being on the hook for the entire bill. I couldn't find a marketplace plan that didn't give me real doubts about the possible financial impact of traveling to other states(!) so I decided to suck it up and pay for COBRA for peace of mind. Of course, COBRA will run out after 18 months, but I plan to get another corporate job before then. TL:DR if you have (or recently left) a fancy corporate job here, you have access to a group plan with nice coverage. If you have to buy an individual plan, it seems you cannot get the same level of coverage even if you're willing to pay for it, and the available coverage leaves you with the risk of huge medical bills if you suddenly need healthcare while simply traveling within the country.
danans 5y ago
I was going to post this, but couldn't have said it better. The stakes of a job are quite a bit higher in the US, and it goes beyond healthcare. The quality of a great many social foods in the US, from primary schooling to transit access and many others, are governed by your job. The social safety nets that exist kick in only at the extremes, of destitution (Medicaid) or age (Medicare).
throw_m239339 5y ago
> European countries literally have no legal concept of at-will employment. They have strong social nets that make quitting your job much easier, and more prevalent unions that fight to improve working conditions (all of these things are, gasp, political! incidentally) This isn't what is debated here. What is debated is whether Coinbase should display a Black Lives Matter flag on its website and whether employees should be debating about Black Live matters, "Free Palestine", ICE and immigration policies or other wedge issues on the clock. In Europe the very premise of that question would be completely absurd, and thanks to that both right wingers and left wingers can coexist in the same workplace by behaving professional. This is almost impossible today in the tech sector in USA.
- bradlys 5y ago
  The reason it’s absurd in Europe is because Europe is a very “left” leaning region (its more that America is just so wildly conservative and in the pockets of capitalists). Many European countries do not have a political party that is even as right leaning as the Democratic Party within the USA. A lot of the stuff in Europe is just a given whereas in the US, almost nothing is a given. Even the leftists in the US are quite modest with their essential demands in comparison to most of Europe!
  - throw_m239339 5y ago
    > The reason it’s absurd in Europe is because Europe is a very “left” leaning region (its more that America is just so wildly conservative and in the pockets of capitalists). Many European countries do not have a political party that is even as right leaning as the Democratic Party within the USA. Europe isn't "left" leaning at all. Most of Europe is culturally conservative. It's just like unlike the USA, Europeans believe in strong central governments and even the right usually don't question welfare state. But it says nothing about Europe and wedge issues like homosexuality, immigration, ... The fact the far right in countries like France for instance have high voting scores should dispel any sense of Europe being "left leaning". > Many European countries do not have a political party that is even as right leaning as the Democratic Party within the USA. This is completely false. Every European country has a far right party, that holds "traditional" view on wedge issues and is opposed to the US made idea of "diversity". I don't know why americans think Europe is somehow "left leaning", this has never been the case. The divide is more along the lines of "globalists" which are classical liberals and pro EU, and nationalists/isolationists, which are anti-EU, anti-globalism. Both camps have their socially liberal and culturally conservative parties.
philwelch 5y ago
> European countries literally have no legal concept of at-will employment. They have strong social nets that make quitting your job much easier, and more prevalent unions that fight to improve working conditions... > By comparison employment in the US is messed up enough that if you leave your job you lose your health insurance. Companies with great policies can sometimes retain employees on that basis alone! I think this is an argument in favor of what Brian is doing at Coinbase, though. The problem is that in the current political climate, people are intimidated and discouraged from becoming politically engaged out of fear that if their views are unpopular enough, even many years in the future, their coworkers will circulate petitions to get them fired. If we as a people were capable of civil disagreement and didn't do things like circulate petitions to get our coworkers fired, maybe it wouldn't be necessary for Coinbase to do what they did.

Zababa 5y ago

You make at least three times as much as people in Europe, while the cost of living isn't three times higher. You can save this money in case something bad happens. If you're a minimum wage worker that's a different story. But we're talking about software engineers here. A standing desk and wrist exercises solve most of your possible work-related injuries.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
aiisjustanif 5y ago
Not everyone at tech company is a software engineer or makes that type of money.

5560675260 5y ago

> Is it really any wonder that “politics” ends up being an issue in the workplace? It's still a wonder for me, I don't follow your reasoning at all. How does this force people into being antagonistic and fighting over politics in the workplace? If anything, this should put a pressure on workers to not stand out and keep their mouth shut, so that they wouldn't risk loosing coveted employer-provided insurance.

fleddr 5y ago

I think we're mixing up different political topics here. The one I think you're talking about is the US workers' struggle to defend or increase basic worker rights. Which indeed is a political struggle of workers versus management. If I'm not mistaken, the Coinbase case is about social justice types of topics like feminism, BLM, trans rights, colonialism, the like.

afavour 5y ago
My point is that positions like Brian's require there to be a clear and bright line between "political" and "not political". I think it's at least slightly easier to draw that line in European workplaces where the nature of employment is not as politically fraught. Just to take two of your examples: feminism and trans rights. Both have healthcare implications. Your employer controls your healthcare. Should the healthcare provided by your employer cover birth control? Abortion? Conversion therapy? This mix is inevitable.
- fleddr 5y ago
  We might as well call it what it is: troublemakers. People that are so politically activist at work that they dis-proportionally impact the business. By sowing division, distracting from the work, spoiling morale. And sometimes worse, like stealing data or airing dirty laundry publicly. I'm not going to touch the morality of it, I'm merely painting the picture of what it is. There's more companies where this is an issue, Google had plenty such incidents, Basecamp, Facebook, the like.
  - afavour 5y ago
    I can't help but feel like you've made your mind up and aren't interested in listening to any other perspective. Your reply addresses absolutely nothing in the post it's replying to. Perhaps we just leave the conversation here, I don't see it going anywhere fruitful. I wish you all the best.
    - fleddr 5y ago

dntrkv 5y ago

I don't see how at-will employment is related here. This is Coinbase. The vast majority of the employees there are not stuck in a job they wish they could leave but can't. These are some of the most privileged employees in the world. The bigger issue is like the OP stated, the state of politics in the US. How does at-will employment relate to issues like not working with certain government institutions because you disagree with their purpose? Coinbase isn't trying to avoid political arguments over healthcare, they're trying to avoid employees rallying together and changing the company to further their personal political beliefs.

jsiepkes 5y ago

Aside from that your comparison with Europe is quite flawed (there are plenty "at-will employment" type of constructions possible here, you don't get unemployment benefits if you quit yourself, etc.) these are all tech workers who have new employers lining up to hire them. They are not blue collar workers in an Amazon warehouse who have to relieve themselves in a bottle and get terminated by an algorithm for failing to meet quota's. But besides all that I fail to see how any of what you just said are arguments to make the workplace a political Twitter-style fight pit?

bob229 5y ago

If you think Britain has a “strong social net” then you are a total ignoramus

gruez 5y ago

I don't get it. You argue that employment is more tenuous at US companies for various reasons... therefore employees want to stick their necks out by engaging in politics? Shouldn't we expect the opposite?

aiisjustanif 5y ago
Breaking points in history are still breaking points.

KKKKkkkk1 5y ago

> Companies with great policies can sometimes retain employees on that basis alone! So I recently quit a FAANG and they sent me a COBRA notice with the cost of their insurance benefit. You can get great FAANG insurance for about $10k a year, which is peanuts for a Silicon Valley engineer. We need to dispel the myth that Silicon Valley engineers are working for health insurance.

muench 5y ago
COBRA means you’re still getting insurance through your (former) employer. How much does the same insurance benefit cost if you buy it fully on your own? In my experience you can’t even buy a similar plan as an individual. And definitely not at the same price.
- cyounkins 5y ago
  Apples to apples comparison is very hard because the plans are all different. But having bought insurance from the state marketplace it two US states, I'd say around $500 USD/month.
- moosedev 5y ago
  This matches my recent experience. I researched plans on Washington state's health marketplace and found that while the available plans were generally much cheaper than COBRA, their coverage for out-of-network or out-of-state care was limited (e.g. "emergency" care only, where the definition of emergency is vague and up to the insurer). And even if you are careful to get taken to an "in-network" hospital, there are plenty of horror stories about inadvertently getting treated by an "out-of-network" provider while inside and being on the hook for the entire bill. I couldn't find a marketplace plan that didn't give me real doubts about the possible financial impact of traveling to other states(!) so I decided to suck it up and pay for COBRA for peace of mind. Of course, COBRA will run out after 18 months, but I plan to get another corporate job before then. TL:DR if you have (or recently left) a fancy corporate job here, you have access to a group plan with nice coverage. If you have to buy an individual plan, it seems you cannot get the same level of coverage even if you're willing to pay for it, and the available coverage leaves you with the risk of huge medical bills if you suddenly need healthcare while simply traveling within the country.

danans 5y ago

I was going to post this, but couldn't have said it better. The stakes of a job are quite a bit higher in the US, and it goes beyond healthcare. The quality of a great many social foods in the US, from primary schooling to transit access and many others, are governed by your job. The social safety nets that exist kick in only at the extremes, of destitution (Medicaid) or age (Medicare).

throw_m239339 5y ago

> European countries literally have no legal concept of at-will employment. They have strong social nets that make quitting your job much easier, and more prevalent unions that fight to improve working conditions (all of these things are, gasp, political! incidentally) This isn't what is debated here. What is debated is whether Coinbase should display a Black Lives Matter flag on its website and whether employees should be debating about Black Live matters, "Free Palestine", ICE and immigration policies or other wedge issues on the clock. In Europe the very premise of that question would be completely absurd, and thanks to that both right wingers and left wingers can coexist in the same workplace by behaving professional. This is almost impossible today in the tech sector in USA.

bradlys 5y ago
The reason it’s absurd in Europe is because Europe is a very “left” leaning region (its more that America is just so wildly conservative and in the pockets of capitalists). Many European countries do not have a political party that is even as right leaning as the Democratic Party within the USA. A lot of the stuff in Europe is just a given whereas in the US, almost nothing is a given. Even the leftists in the US are quite modest with their essential demands in comparison to most of Europe!
- throw_m239339 5y ago
  > The reason it’s absurd in Europe is because Europe is a very “left” leaning region (its more that America is just so wildly conservative and in the pockets of capitalists). Many European countries do not have a political party that is even as right leaning as the Democratic Party within the USA. Europe isn't "left" leaning at all. Most of Europe is culturally conservative. It's just like unlike the USA, Europeans believe in strong central governments and even the right usually don't question welfare state. But it says nothing about Europe and wedge issues like homosexuality, immigration, ... The fact the far right in countries like France for instance have high voting scores should dispel any sense of Europe being "left leaning". > Many European countries do not have a political party that is even as right leaning as the Democratic Party within the USA. This is completely false. Every European country has a far right party, that holds "traditional" view on wedge issues and is opposed to the US made idea of "diversity". I don't know why americans think Europe is somehow "left leaning", this has never been the case. The divide is more along the lines of "globalists" which are classical liberals and pro EU, and nationalists/isolationists, which are anti-EU, anti-globalism. Both camps have their socially liberal and culturally conservative parties.

philwelch 5y ago

> European countries literally have no legal concept of at-will employment. They have strong social nets that make quitting your job much easier, and more prevalent unions that fight to improve working conditions... > By comparison employment in the US is messed up enough that if you leave your job you lose your health insurance. Companies with great policies can sometimes retain employees on that basis alone! I think this is an argument in favor of what Brian is doing at Coinbase, though. The problem is that in the current political climate, people are intimidated and discouraged from becoming politically engaged out of fear that if their views are unpopular enough, even many years in the future, their coworkers will circulate petitions to get them fired. If we as a people were capable of civil disagreement and didn't do things like circulate petitions to get our coworkers fired, maybe it wouldn't be necessary for Coinbase to do what they did.