7 ms·

This is upsetting. What can I, an ordinary civilian not involved with the shipping industry, do to help these people?

mam2 5y ago
Nothing really relevant probalby.
forgotmypw17 5y ago
Buy less stuff, basically. Think hard before buying something "new". You may not need it, or you may be able to find alternatives, such as hand-me-downs, secondhand, etc.
- ericd 5y ago
  Local BuyNothing groups are great for this.
  - Tijdreiziger 5y ago
    Just looked into Buy Nothing. What's the advantage of using this platform vs. second-hand/thrift shops?
    - forgotmypw17 5y ago
      I think it's an alternative to second-hand and thrift shops, and the biggest advantage is that it is available even in areas without thrift shops. The second advantage is that you don't have to pay, so it is more likely that items will find a good home instead of being discarded. The third advantage is non-participation in the money system, if you're into that sort of thing, and also the elimination of overhead for store and inventory upkeep. One downside, of course, is that most people aren't willing to keep their "stock" around for too long, so there's limited inventory at any given time that you can browse.
    - ericd 5y ago
      It’s typically just a Facebook group of your neighbors, so “platform” might be a bit strong for what it is. Besides everything being free, I’ve found it helps build a bit of a sense of community for those who participate.
      - Tijdreiziger 5y ago
        This is what their website [1] says: > The most direct way to participate in this amazing experiment with us is to join the BuyNothing App. [1] https://buynothingproject.org/find-a-group/ https://buynothingproject.org/find-a-group/
        ericd 5y ago
        Ah gotcha, I heard about that, the founders sort of stepped back from the FB groups version and started trying to push a standalone app version. I'm guessing the FB groups version is still more popular/useful. Oh, also, there're a lot of plants and things that get exchanged, another difference from second hand shops.
- shakezula 5y ago
  You can't "buy less stuff" when the things we're talking about are necessities, often times food and critical supplies like fuel. Container ships don't just ship you game consoles and televisions. And even if you managed to reduce all private consumption to zero, commercial consumption probably makes up an order of magnitudes more than private does. It doesn't matter what YOU do, you can't change the scales that these ships operate. The only thing that will fix this is government intervention and fines that make it less cost effective to abandon the ship than to deal with the consequences.
  - trangus_1985 5y ago
    But you can "buy less stuff" in general. And that will reduce your impact.
    - shakezula 5y ago
      Sure, but that has literally no impact on the incentives that created this problem in the first place. It's not related to volume or frequency, and if anything less frequent and smaller shipments might exacerbate this issue in the current system. Supply chains are counter-intuitive like that sometimes.
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    You can't "buy less stuff" when the things we're talking about are necessities, often times food and critical supplies like fuel. This isn't really an excuse in e.g. USA, which produces surpluses in both of these commodities.
    - shakezula 5y ago
      Those surpluses are mostly exported, and besides that you're missing the forest for the trees. Individual action, even if completely efficient and pervasive, would not be enough to fix this problem.
      - jessaustin 5y ago
- plausibledeny 5y ago
  How does that help the people in the shipping industry? Let's say you did reduce shipping and therefore there were fewer shipping jobs, the people currently doing this work would lose these jobs and have to find other work. Something which would be even less attractive than shipping. How's that help them?
  - forgotmypw17 5y ago
    It doesn't help them either way, whether you buy stuff or not. However, it does help you not be comlicit to their treatment.
    - plausibledeny 5y ago
      But clearly for many of them this bad choice is their best option (unfortunately). So the goal isn't to improve their lives but to assuage our guilt? Companies that use these services could exert pressure for better conditions, just like some have done with other companies in their supply chain.
      - forgotmypw17 5y ago
        I think there is a difference between guilt and complicity, though they are related. I have somewhat limited agency in this world, limited to the little bit of money I spend, the movement of my arms and legs, the words I speak, the things I look at, and my thoughts and intentions.
    - Igelau 5y ago
      Except the companies are doing this because they are already strapped for cash. Willingly trying to avoid global shipping would actually make you more complicit.
      - inawarminister 5y ago
        Not really, in a free market consumers directing their consumption away from a sector does not make them complicit in the abuses or bankruptcy of that sector. They don't have direct relationship to that sector anymore, after all.
- m463 5y ago
  wouldn't that create a recession or depression?
  - PoachedSausage 5y ago
    We could go for ecological and climate collapse instead. I hope there is a middle way.
  - forgotmypw17 5y ago
    Is an economic recession or depression necessarily bad, if everyone's basic needs are still accounted for? If the economy is in a state of overproduction and extreme waste while the effects are the burn-up of our own habitat, shouldn't it tune down a bit anyway?
genericone 5y ago
For a start, buy goods and services from ultra-local sources, a boycott of shipped goods if you will. Know that your sources get their supplies shipped to them, but just go down the local-sourcing chain as far as you deem reasonable.
- ericd 5y ago
  Do you know of any good ways to find these ultra-local sources of goods efficiently?
  - egypturnash 5y ago
    For food, farmer's markets usually work well; if you can't find one locally whose hours and sellers sync up with your food needs, look at all your local grocers - there should be at least one who gets a lot of local goods, and puts signs on the shelves proclaiming this.
    - chefkoch 5y ago
      I don't think you'll find tomatoes and salad in these ships. Most of the poorly run ships will not go to first world harbors with safety controls etc.
    - mook 5y ago
      Note that farmers markets don't guarantee that the produce is actually local. Realistically you'd need to camp out early enough to catch them shipping it on site to figure out where it's actually from.
      - MichaelZuo 5y ago
        Or you can talk to them, gauge their trustworthiness, and ask around about their reputation.
      - asdff 5y ago
        Usually its obvious that the heirloom produce they are selling would be impossible to ship long distances. an heirloom tomato is amazingly fragile compared to a roma bred for shipping.
Swenrekcah 5y ago
Form a group of a few like minded people and pressure your representatives to do something.
- avaldes 5y ago
  I'm sorry but is this a template response? This kind of situation is a bureaucratic mess spanning an awful lot of jurisdictions. What "your representative" can possibly do to help abandoned crewmen on a ship in a forgotten port in whatever place in the world when the ships operator is a chain of shell companies to the point that's virtually impossible to pinpoint a single entity to blame. It has to be a better way.
  - Swenrekcah 5y ago
    Sure, it's not an easy way. But basically I can think of four things to do: 1. Complain on the internet. This is easy but utterly ineffectual. 2. Alter your buying behavior. Unless you are the purchasing director for a multinational conglomerate, also utterly ineffectual. 3. Do something stupid like trying to blow up a containership. Also ineffectual, will land you in jail and will almost certainly kill some innocent people. 4. Contact your local representatives and get them to do soemthing about it. This will be easier if you are part of a larger group. Then your group and your representative(s) can contact someone higher up and so on. Yes this particular problem and many others relating to ship operations thrives because there is little direct control and everyone is from 20 different jurisdictions, but perhaps some of those jurisdictions can team up and tax those that don't follow their rules or whatever. I am not an expert in this but some people are and the most I can do is let my representatives know that I care about this stuff. Maybe I actually should go and do that.
    - m463 5y ago
      there's also the news media. (although I have noticed something unfortunate: I have a LOT of 5-star documentaries to watch, but rarely do, while I watch even 2-star scifi stuff almost immediately)
literallyaduck 5y ago
You could contact your lawmakers and ask for a crew bond escrow requirement for ships, insolvent companies forfeit the money and it pays to send the crew home with a year's pay.
- OldHand2018 5y ago
  I don't think any of the suggestions made thus far will do anything to help out. I think that one of the only methods that has a chance is to go to the UN and work out a treaty on human rights for maritime workers with the stipulation that once a supermajority of nations ratify/adopt it, ships flying the flag of a nation that hasn't ratified it are not allowed in the ports of the nations that have.
vkou 5y ago
Ask that your federal representative legislate against this sort of behaviour, and to give teeth to enforcement agencies. Unscrupulous actors get away with this because there are few rules against it, and enforcement is non-existent. If a shipping company is sanctioned from entry into American ports based on misbehavior on the other side of the world, they'd have an incentive to clean up their act... Or at least, to subcontract everything to shell corporations.
drak0n1c 5y ago
Pressure politicians to implement covid rule exemptions/changes, budget hikes, and personnel bonuses to keep docks open. They are too often closed to incoming ships due to unreasonable requirements such as vaccine passports for all sailors and quarantines whenever there are mild/asymptomatic breakthrough infections among vaccinated dock staff. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-03-31/for-stranded-sailors-the-covid-crisis-never-ends https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-03-31/for-st...
regnull 5y ago
https://www.missiontoseafarers.org https://www.missiontoseafarers.org

mam2 5y ago

Nothing really relevant probalby.

Buy less stuff, basically. Think hard before buying something "new". You may not need it, or you may be able to find alternatives, such as hand-me-downs, secondhand, etc.

ericd 5y ago
Local BuyNothing groups are great for this.
- Tijdreiziger 5y ago
  Just looked into Buy Nothing. What's the advantage of using this platform vs. second-hand/thrift shops?
  - forgotmypw17 5y ago
    I think it's an alternative to second-hand and thrift shops, and the biggest advantage is that it is available even in areas without thrift shops. The second advantage is that you don't have to pay, so it is more likely that items will find a good home instead of being discarded. The third advantage is non-participation in the money system, if you're into that sort of thing, and also the elimination of overhead for store and inventory upkeep. One downside, of course, is that most people aren't willing to keep their "stock" around for too long, so there's limited inventory at any given time that you can browse.
  - ericd 5y ago
    It’s typically just a Facebook group of your neighbors, so “platform” might be a bit strong for what it is. Besides everything being free, I’ve found it helps build a bit of a sense of community for those who participate.
    - Tijdreiziger 5y ago
      This is what their website [1] says: > The most direct way to participate in this amazing experiment with us is to join the BuyNothing App. [1] https://buynothingproject.org/find-a-group/ https://buynothingproject.org/find-a-group/
      - ericd 5y ago
        Ah gotcha, I heard about that, the founders sort of stepped back from the FB groups version and started trying to push a standalone app version. I'm guessing the FB groups version is still more popular/useful. Oh, also, there're a lot of plants and things that get exchanged, another difference from second hand shops.
shakezula 5y ago
You can't "buy less stuff" when the things we're talking about are necessities, often times food and critical supplies like fuel. Container ships don't just ship you game consoles and televisions. And even if you managed to reduce all private consumption to zero, commercial consumption probably makes up an order of magnitudes more than private does. It doesn't matter what YOU do, you can't change the scales that these ships operate. The only thing that will fix this is government intervention and fines that make it less cost effective to abandon the ship than to deal with the consequences.
- trangus_1985 5y ago
  But you can "buy less stuff" in general. And that will reduce your impact.
  - shakezula 5y ago
    Sure, but that has literally no impact on the incentives that created this problem in the first place. It's not related to volume or frequency, and if anything less frequent and smaller shipments might exacerbate this issue in the current system. Supply chains are counter-intuitive like that sometimes.
- jessaustin 5y ago
  You can't "buy less stuff" when the things we're talking about are necessities, often times food and critical supplies like fuel. This isn't really an excuse in e.g. USA, which produces surpluses in both of these commodities.
  - shakezula 5y ago
    Those surpluses are mostly exported, and besides that you're missing the forest for the trees. Individual action, even if completely efficient and pervasive, would not be enough to fix this problem.
    - jessaustin 5y ago
plausibledeny 5y ago
How does that help the people in the shipping industry? Let's say you did reduce shipping and therefore there were fewer shipping jobs, the people currently doing this work would lose these jobs and have to find other work. Something which would be even less attractive than shipping. How's that help them?
- forgotmypw17 5y ago
  It doesn't help them either way, whether you buy stuff or not. However, it does help you not be comlicit to their treatment.
  - plausibledeny 5y ago
    But clearly for many of them this bad choice is their best option (unfortunately). So the goal isn't to improve their lives but to assuage our guilt? Companies that use these services could exert pressure for better conditions, just like some have done with other companies in their supply chain.
    - forgotmypw17 5y ago
      I think there is a difference between guilt and complicity, though they are related. I have somewhat limited agency in this world, limited to the little bit of money I spend, the movement of my arms and legs, the words I speak, the things I look at, and my thoughts and intentions.
  - Igelau 5y ago
    Except the companies are doing this because they are already strapped for cash. Willingly trying to avoid global shipping would actually make you more complicit.
    - inawarminister 5y ago
      Not really, in a free market consumers directing their consumption away from a sector does not make them complicit in the abuses or bankruptcy of that sector. They don't have direct relationship to that sector anymore, after all.
m463 5y ago
wouldn't that create a recession or depression?
- PoachedSausage 5y ago
  We could go for ecological and climate collapse instead. I hope there is a middle way.
- forgotmypw17 5y ago
  Is an economic recession or depression necessarily bad, if everyone's basic needs are still accounted for? If the economy is in a state of overproduction and extreme waste while the effects are the burn-up of our own habitat, shouldn't it tune down a bit anyway?

genericone 5y ago

For a start, buy goods and services from ultra-local sources, a boycott of shipped goods if you will. Know that your sources get their supplies shipped to them, but just go down the local-sourcing chain as far as you deem reasonable.

ericd 5y ago
Do you know of any good ways to find these ultra-local sources of goods efficiently?
- egypturnash 5y ago
  For food, farmer's markets usually work well; if you can't find one locally whose hours and sellers sync up with your food needs, look at all your local grocers - there should be at least one who gets a lot of local goods, and puts signs on the shelves proclaiming this.
  - chefkoch 5y ago
    I don't think you'll find tomatoes and salad in these ships. Most of the poorly run ships will not go to first world harbors with safety controls etc.
  - mook 5y ago
    Note that farmers markets don't guarantee that the produce is actually local. Realistically you'd need to camp out early enough to catch them shipping it on site to figure out where it's actually from.
    - MichaelZuo 5y ago
      Or you can talk to them, gauge their trustworthiness, and ask around about their reputation.
    - asdff 5y ago
      Usually its obvious that the heirloom produce they are selling would be impossible to ship long distances. an heirloom tomato is amazingly fragile compared to a roma bred for shipping.

Swenrekcah 5y ago

Form a group of a few like minded people and pressure your representatives to do something.

avaldes 5y ago
I'm sorry but is this a template response? This kind of situation is a bureaucratic mess spanning an awful lot of jurisdictions. What "your representative" can possibly do to help abandoned crewmen on a ship in a forgotten port in whatever place in the world when the ships operator is a chain of shell companies to the point that's virtually impossible to pinpoint a single entity to blame. It has to be a better way.
- Swenrekcah 5y ago
  Sure, it's not an easy way. But basically I can think of four things to do: 1. Complain on the internet. This is easy but utterly ineffectual. 2. Alter your buying behavior. Unless you are the purchasing director for a multinational conglomerate, also utterly ineffectual. 3. Do something stupid like trying to blow up a containership. Also ineffectual, will land you in jail and will almost certainly kill some innocent people. 4. Contact your local representatives and get them to do soemthing about it. This will be easier if you are part of a larger group. Then your group and your representative(s) can contact someone higher up and so on. Yes this particular problem and many others relating to ship operations thrives because there is little direct control and everyone is from 20 different jurisdictions, but perhaps some of those jurisdictions can team up and tax those that don't follow their rules or whatever. I am not an expert in this but some people are and the most I can do is let my representatives know that I care about this stuff. Maybe I actually should go and do that.
  - m463 5y ago
    there's also the news media. (although I have noticed something unfortunate: I have a LOT of 5-star documentaries to watch, but rarely do, while I watch even 2-star scifi stuff almost immediately)

literallyaduck 5y ago

You could contact your lawmakers and ask for a crew bond escrow requirement for ships, insolvent companies forfeit the money and it pays to send the crew home with a year's pay.

OldHand2018 5y ago
I don't think any of the suggestions made thus far will do anything to help out. I think that one of the only methods that has a chance is to go to the UN and work out a treaty on human rights for maritime workers with the stipulation that once a supermajority of nations ratify/adopt it, ships flying the flag of a nation that hasn't ratified it are not allowed in the ports of the nations that have.

vkou 5y ago

Ask that your federal representative legislate against this sort of behaviour, and to give teeth to enforcement agencies. Unscrupulous actors get away with this because there are few rules against it, and enforcement is non-existent. If a shipping company is sanctioned from entry into American ports based on misbehavior on the other side of the world, they'd have an incentive to clean up their act... Or at least, to subcontract everything to shell corporations.

drak0n1c 5y ago

Pressure politicians to implement covid rule exemptions/changes, budget hikes, and personnel bonuses to keep docks open. They are too often closed to incoming ships due to unreasonable requirements such as vaccine passports for all sailors and quarantines whenever there are mild/asymptomatic breakthrough infections among vaccinated dock staff. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-03-31/for-stranded-sailors-the-covid-crisis-never-ends https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-03-31/for-st...

regnull 5y ago

https://www.missiontoseafarers.org https://www.missiontoseafarers.org