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I'd use this if you can remove all the Apple crap features: - All the crap of AI / machine learning to prevent cross-site tracking that's useless to me in "Pri

I'd use this if you can remove all the Apple crap features: - All the crap of AI / machine learning to prevent cross-site tracking that's useless to me in "Private Browsing" mode - just give me back control over cookies (manually and through third-party extensions), and keep Apple away from my data. - Remove the crap "Web Advertising: Allow privacy-preserving measurement of ad effectiveness" code from webkit. Keep advertisers, and Apple's online advertising networks, away from my data. So just as there are many Chrome clones that advertise they've removed all Google spying code from it, please offer a Webskit browser without Apple's crap baked into it. If possible also reverse the changes Apple made to Webkit that actually slightly cripples adblockers, like uBlock, from working effectively on it.

ezfe 5y ago
Do you understand what "Web Advertising" checkbox does? Like, I'm curious if you've actually read how it works. And I assume you're aware that "all the crap of AI / ML" is disable-able with a checkbox right?
- webmobdev 5y ago
  > And I assume you're aware that "all the crap of AI / ML" is disable-able with a checkbox right? Yeah, just like how "opting out" of Telemetry in Firefox & Windows truly means Firefox ( https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/mozilla-does-not-respect-user-requests-to-stop-tracking-telemetry-data/ https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/mozilla-does-not-... ) & Windows ( https://old.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/o9zswt/disabling_telemetry_no_longer_actually_disables/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/o9zswt/disabling... ) honour them. Or like iPhones never send location data to Apple when you turn it off ( https://www.gsmarena.com/iphone_11_pro_devices_collect_location_data_even_when_turned_off-news-40401.php https://www.gsmarena.com/iphone_11_pro_devices_collect_locat... ). /s If I am searching for a privacy first alternative to Apple Safari, it should be obvious that it is because I don't trust Apple.
breakfastduck 5y ago
For someone so enthusiastic in their dislike you sure as hell haven't looked very hard at how to turn those off :)
- webmobdev 5y ago
  Actually I don't even bother using Safari at all because of crap like this. Should have been obvious that if i am looking for a privacy first alternative to Apple Safari, it is because I don't trust Apple.
  - breakfastduck 5y ago
    If you don't trust Apple & you're running an Apple OS then surely Safari is the least of your concerns...
    - webmobdev 5y ago
      True. I am currently stuck with a Mac due to some proprietary apps. However, by using an older macOS, not using iCloud and with an application firewall blocking Apple softwares from the net, my personal data is relatively safe from Apple for now.
freediver 5y ago
> changes Apple made to Webkit that actually slightly cripples adblockers, like uBlock, from working effectively on it We already did that, uBlock Origin works on top of WebKit in Orion. Also, Orion is zero-telemetry by default to address your other concern. Fire up a network proxy when using Orion and you will be welcomed with a wall of silence.
- webmobdev 5y ago
  That's really good to hear! But how it works is what matters as even Chrome still technically supports uBlock Origin but Blink has been modified to ensure that ad blockers like it can't work efficiently on it anymore. According to Raymond Hill, Firefox is the browser that currently works best with uBlock Origin. Does Orion's implementation match the feature parity of how uBlock Origin works with Firefox, going even beyond content blocking? Does your modification of Webkit include all the API that uBlock Origin currently uses on Firefox?
  - freediver 5y ago
    As far as we know, Raymond Hill did not test uBlock Origin in Orion yet, and when he does I hope he will be able to share the details of support with us.
duskwuff 5y ago
> All the crap of AI / machine learning to prevent cross-site tracking that's useless to me in "Private Browsing" mode Private Browsing, on its own, can only limit the scope of cross-site tracking to a single Private Browsing session. It does not prevent cross-site tracking within that session. (For example, if you visit two web sites within a Private Browsing session which both use Facebook widgets, Facebook may be able to correlate your activity across those sites.)
- webmobdev 5y ago
  True, and a good point. I scoff at Webkit ITP because Apple has tried to "balance" the needs of the advertising industry vs Safari users. I prefer a more aggressive solution - prevent the tracking cookies in the first place. Take the example you cited - if uBlock Origin removes the Facebook widgets, and blocks Facebook tracking on all websites I visit, I won't have any tracking cookies in the first place. That automatically prevents cross-site tracking within a particular session. It must be obvious this solution is much more effective and hence why I consider ITP inferior.
saagarjha 5y ago
WebKit's ITP is works entirely on-device. And Orion supports uBlock (via the WebExtensions API) if you happen to trust that more than content blocking.
- webmobdev 5y ago
  Webkit ITP is Apple's way of trying to "balance" the interest of advertising platforms (which it also has) vs the interests of Safari users. Thus, it still allows for some tracking. As a user that is hostile to tracking and profiling, I prefer the more aggressive solution of blocking the tracking cookies altogether in the first place, and preventing any tracking. Thus, uBlock Origin offers the ideal solution to me, as unlike ITP, it blocks all tracking cookies and even goes further by preventing the tracking codes from even executing (thus even preventing the trackers from using other methods that advertisers have started using to bypass ITP - https://resources.observepoint.com/blog/webkit-itp-analytics-tracking https://resources.observepoint.com/blog/webkit-itp-analytics... ). Thus, I feel ITP is a pretty limited and inferior solution from that perspective. (I also believe this feature was introduced to introduce another vector for data collection of browsing data of its users that don't use Safari on iCloud - while ITP does run on the machine, it gave Apple a good excuse to initially collect cookie data from all users to analyse it for ITP modeling - Apple does collect data "to improve its services". Honestly, I am just very cynical about Apple and other BigTech when it comes to my privacy and data.) Good to know that WebExtensions API has been ported to Webkit by the Orion team. It needs to be seen how they've implemented it though - even Chrome supports WebExtensions but we all know how Blink has been modified to cripple uBlock Origin and other adblockers on it.

ezfe 5y ago

Do you understand what "Web Advertising" checkbox does? Like, I'm curious if you've actually read how it works. And I assume you're aware that "all the crap of AI / ML" is disable-able with a checkbox right?

webmobdev 5y ago
> And I assume you're aware that "all the crap of AI / ML" is disable-able with a checkbox right? Yeah, just like how "opting out" of Telemetry in Firefox & Windows truly means Firefox ( https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/mozilla-does-not-respect-user-requests-to-stop-tracking-telemetry-data/ https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/mozilla-does-not-... ) & Windows ( https://old.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/o9zswt/disabling_telemetry_no_longer_actually_disables/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/o9zswt/disabling... ) honour them. Or like iPhones never send location data to Apple when you turn it off ( https://www.gsmarena.com/iphone_11_pro_devices_collect_location_data_even_when_turned_off-news-40401.php https://www.gsmarena.com/iphone_11_pro_devices_collect_locat... ). /s If I am searching for a privacy first alternative to Apple Safari, it should be obvious that it is because I don't trust Apple.

breakfastduck 5y ago

For someone so enthusiastic in their dislike you sure as hell haven't looked very hard at how to turn those off :)

webmobdev 5y ago
Actually I don't even bother using Safari at all because of crap like this. Should have been obvious that if i am looking for a privacy first alternative to Apple Safari, it is because I don't trust Apple.
- breakfastduck 5y ago
  If you don't trust Apple & you're running an Apple OS then surely Safari is the least of your concerns...
  - webmobdev 5y ago
    True. I am currently stuck with a Mac due to some proprietary apps. However, by using an older macOS, not using iCloud and with an application firewall blocking Apple softwares from the net, my personal data is relatively safe from Apple for now.

freediver 5y ago

> changes Apple made to Webkit that actually slightly cripples adblockers, like uBlock, from working effectively on it We already did that, uBlock Origin works on top of WebKit in Orion. Also, Orion is zero-telemetry by default to address your other concern. Fire up a network proxy when using Orion and you will be welcomed with a wall of silence.

webmobdev 5y ago
That's really good to hear! But how it works is what matters as even Chrome still technically supports uBlock Origin but Blink has been modified to ensure that ad blockers like it can't work efficiently on it anymore. According to Raymond Hill, Firefox is the browser that currently works best with uBlock Origin. Does Orion's implementation match the feature parity of how uBlock Origin works with Firefox, going even beyond content blocking? Does your modification of Webkit include all the API that uBlock Origin currently uses on Firefox?
- freediver 5y ago
  As far as we know, Raymond Hill did not test uBlock Origin in Orion yet, and when he does I hope he will be able to share the details of support with us.

duskwuff 5y ago

> All the crap of AI / machine learning to prevent cross-site tracking that's useless to me in "Private Browsing" mode Private Browsing, on its own, can only limit the scope of cross-site tracking to a single Private Browsing session. It does not prevent cross-site tracking within that session. (For example, if you visit two web sites within a Private Browsing session which both use Facebook widgets, Facebook may be able to correlate your activity across those sites.)

webmobdev 5y ago
True, and a good point. I scoff at Webkit ITP because Apple has tried to "balance" the needs of the advertising industry vs Safari users. I prefer a more aggressive solution - prevent the tracking cookies in the first place. Take the example you cited - if uBlock Origin removes the Facebook widgets, and blocks Facebook tracking on all websites I visit, I won't have any tracking cookies in the first place. That automatically prevents cross-site tracking within a particular session. It must be obvious this solution is much more effective and hence why I consider ITP inferior.

saagarjha 5y ago

WebKit's ITP is works entirely on-device. And Orion supports uBlock (via the WebExtensions API) if you happen to trust that more than content blocking.

webmobdev 5y ago
Webkit ITP is Apple's way of trying to "balance" the interest of advertising platforms (which it also has) vs the interests of Safari users. Thus, it still allows for some tracking. As a user that is hostile to tracking and profiling, I prefer the more aggressive solution of blocking the tracking cookies altogether in the first place, and preventing any tracking. Thus, uBlock Origin offers the ideal solution to me, as unlike ITP, it blocks all tracking cookies and even goes further by preventing the tracking codes from even executing (thus even preventing the trackers from using other methods that advertisers have started using to bypass ITP - https://resources.observepoint.com/blog/webkit-itp-analytics-tracking https://resources.observepoint.com/blog/webkit-itp-analytics... ). Thus, I feel ITP is a pretty limited and inferior solution from that perspective. (I also believe this feature was introduced to introduce another vector for data collection of browsing data of its users that don't use Safari on iCloud - while ITP does run on the machine, it gave Apple a good excuse to initially collect cookie data from all users to analyse it for ITP modeling - Apple does collect data "to improve its services". Honestly, I am just very cynical about Apple and other BigTech when it comes to my privacy and data.) Good to know that WebExtensions API has been ported to Webkit by the Orion team. It needs to be seen how they've implemented it though - even Chrome supports WebExtensions but we all know how Blink has been modified to cripple uBlock Origin and other adblockers on it.