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> in NYC, Asians are the poorest demographic by a large margin. Do you have evidence for this? Asians are by far the richest minority in the US so I was surpri

> in NYC, Asians are the poorest demographic by a large margin. Do you have evidence for this? Asians are by far the richest minority in the US so I was surprised by this statement. > Activists have no problems openly discriminating against Asians because whites, blacks and Latinos think of "Americans" as whites, blacks and Latinos. Asians are considered foreigners. So when a prestigious program is dominated by Asians, something must obviously wrong, right? Diversity means increasing representation. In a situation with limited resources, increasing representation for all means decreasing representation for some. This is the natural conclusion to pushing for equality/representation.

darthvoldemort 5y ago
http://www.roosevelthouse.hunter.cuny.edu/?forum-post=researching-asian-poverty-new-york http://www.roosevelthouse.hunter.cuny.edu/?forum-post=resear...
- notwedtm 5y ago
  This links to https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/opportunity/pdf/20_poverty_measure_report https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/opportunity/pdf/20_poverty_measu... as the original source. On page 28 of this file, you get to the actual statistics. While Asian poverty is certainly high, it is about the same as other minorities, and has been decreasing since 2014.
  - darthvoldemort 5y ago
    No, the report says that Asians poverty is underreported in the data. EDIT: I think that the report shows that Hispanics in 2020 have a higher percentage of poverty than Asians, but it seems like a lot of the articles showing Asians had the highest poverty rates came from before 2017. It looks like in the last 5 years prior to 2020, Asians had improved the poverty rates. Regardless even in 2020, Asian poverty in NYC was 22%, Black poverty was 19%, Hispanic poverty was 24% and White poverty was 13%.
    - notwedtm 5y ago
      I don't know enough about the situation to speak any further on it, I was just as curious about your statement " in NYC, Asians are the poorest demographic by a large margin." as silicon2401 was. It's a dire situation for sure, but I think using "large margin" is disingenuous.
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      It depends on what Asians we are talking about. I bet if you correlate income to gifted access, you’d get a lot of Indians and Chinese in those programs, and many fewer Vietnamese, Filipinos, and Indonesians (doubly so if we break out Chinese ethnicities from those countries). In Seattle, Asians dominate both the high end and the low end (south Seattle has a lot of poorer southeast Asian immigrants, north Seattle has more East and richer south Asian immigrants). It all depends on NYC’s racial mix over the broad term Asian.
seneca 5y ago
> Diversity means increasing representation. In a situation with limited resources, increasing representation for all means decreasing representation for some. This is the natural conclusion to pushing for equality/representation. This is the natural result of equality of outcomes, which is achieved by dragging down the top to meet those who can't excel. That is not at all what most people mean by equality, and is frankly a perversion of the word.
- christkv 5y ago
  They confuse the word equality with equity of outcome
nobody9999 5y ago
>Diversity means increasing representation. In a situation with limited resources, increasing representation for all means decreasing representation for some. This is the natural conclusion to pushing for equality/representation. Except the problem isn't with the gifted/talented programs in NYC. And it isn't with the SHSAT[0] either. The problem is that public elementary and middle schools in majority black/hispanic neighborhoods have measurably much worse educational results. What's more, those schools don't even consider preparing their students for G/T programs or the specialized high schools. There are many reasons for this and fixing it is hard. As such, instead of giving minority students a better education, some activists are calling for (and succeeding) removal of gifted/talented programs and getting rid of the SHSAT. As a product of the NYC public school system, I have no illusions that fixing these problems will be easy. But removing the G/T programs instead of directing poorly performing schools to bring all their students up to educational levels which allow the best of them (as in every other school) to participate in G/T programs and increase their numbers in the specialized high schools. IMHO, this is completely ass backwards. And De Blasio is gone in January, leaving this mess to his successor. As a NYC resident, I'm glad I don't have kids here.[1] [0] https://www.schools.nyc.gov/learning/testing/specialized-high-school-admissions-test https://www.schools.nyc.gov/learning/testing/specialized-hig... [1] I could go on and on about how ridiculous this is, but I am so disgusted with De Blasio and the NYC Department of Education about this stuff that I'll just stop now before this becomes an all out rant.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  > The problem is that public elementary and middle schools in majority black/hispanic neighborhoods have measurably much worse educational results. Are the students doing poorly in those schools because they are poorly run/staffed/and funded, or is it the case that the students in those schools have more problems at home leading to poorer results? In other words, is this a problem schools can fix at all?
  - nobody9999 5y ago
    >Are the students doing poorly in those schools because they are poorly run/staffed/and funded, or is it the case that the students in those schools have more problems at home leading to poorer results? There has been research (don't have it handy right now) that there's a negative feedback loop with that. Schools in poor areas tend to have less parental involvement (and direct economic support from those parents as is common in wealthier neighborhoods), so school staff don't have as many resources and aren't as incentivized to raise expectations of the students. That creates an environment where the students aren't learning as well as in other neighborhood schools. I suspect that if the authority figures on either side of that raise their expectations and requirements of the students, the negative feedback loop can be, at least partially, short-circuited. >In other words, is this a problem schools can fix at all? Yes. They can't do as much as schools with significantly more parental involvement, but improving the teacher/staff performance would likely improve parent performance. No, it's not a panacea, but blaming all this on poor parenting and throwing up our hands just promotes the centuries-old trope that "poor people are morally and intellectually inferior. It's obvious, if they weren't so they wouldn't be poor." That's circular reasoning and doesn't reflect reality.
ohCh6zos 5y ago
> In a situation with limited resources, increasing representation for all means decreasing representation for some. This is the natural conclusion to pushing for equality/representation. Then reject diversity.

darthvoldemort 5y ago

http://www.roosevelthouse.hunter.cuny.edu/?forum-post=researching-asian-poverty-new-york http://www.roosevelthouse.hunter.cuny.edu/?forum-post=resear...

notwedtm 5y ago
This links to https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/opportunity/pdf/20_poverty_measure_report https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/opportunity/pdf/20_poverty_measu... as the original source. On page 28 of this file, you get to the actual statistics. While Asian poverty is certainly high, it is about the same as other minorities, and has been decreasing since 2014.
- darthvoldemort 5y ago
  No, the report says that Asians poverty is underreported in the data. EDIT: I think that the report shows that Hispanics in 2020 have a higher percentage of poverty than Asians, but it seems like a lot of the articles showing Asians had the highest poverty rates came from before 2017. It looks like in the last 5 years prior to 2020, Asians had improved the poverty rates. Regardless even in 2020, Asian poverty in NYC was 22%, Black poverty was 19%, Hispanic poverty was 24% and White poverty was 13%.
  - notwedtm 5y ago
    I don't know enough about the situation to speak any further on it, I was just as curious about your statement " in NYC, Asians are the poorest demographic by a large margin." as silicon2401 was. It's a dire situation for sure, but I think using "large margin" is disingenuous.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    It depends on what Asians we are talking about. I bet if you correlate income to gifted access, you’d get a lot of Indians and Chinese in those programs, and many fewer Vietnamese, Filipinos, and Indonesians (doubly so if we break out Chinese ethnicities from those countries). In Seattle, Asians dominate both the high end and the low end (south Seattle has a lot of poorer southeast Asian immigrants, north Seattle has more East and richer south Asian immigrants). It all depends on NYC’s racial mix over the broad term Asian.

seneca 5y ago

> Diversity means increasing representation. In a situation with limited resources, increasing representation for all means decreasing representation for some. This is the natural conclusion to pushing for equality/representation. This is the natural result of equality of outcomes, which is achieved by dragging down the top to meet those who can't excel. That is not at all what most people mean by equality, and is frankly a perversion of the word.

christkv 5y ago
They confuse the word equality with equity of outcome

nobody9999 5y ago

>Diversity means increasing representation. In a situation with limited resources, increasing representation for all means decreasing representation for some. This is the natural conclusion to pushing for equality/representation. Except the problem isn't with the gifted/talented programs in NYC. And it isn't with the SHSAT[0] either. The problem is that public elementary and middle schools in majority black/hispanic neighborhoods have measurably much worse educational results. What's more, those schools don't even consider preparing their students for G/T programs or the specialized high schools. There are many reasons for this and fixing it is hard. As such, instead of giving minority students a better education, some activists are calling for (and succeeding) removal of gifted/talented programs and getting rid of the SHSAT. As a product of the NYC public school system, I have no illusions that fixing these problems will be easy. But removing the G/T programs instead of directing poorly performing schools to bring all their students up to educational levels which allow the best of them (as in every other school) to participate in G/T programs and increase their numbers in the specialized high schools. IMHO, this is completely ass backwards. And De Blasio is gone in January, leaving this mess to his successor. As a NYC resident, I'm glad I don't have kids here.[1] [0] https://www.schools.nyc.gov/learning/testing/specialized-high-school-admissions-test https://www.schools.nyc.gov/learning/testing/specialized-hig... [1] I could go on and on about how ridiculous this is, but I am so disgusted with De Blasio and the NYC Department of Education about this stuff that I'll just stop now before this becomes an all out rant.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago
> The problem is that public elementary and middle schools in majority black/hispanic neighborhoods have measurably much worse educational results. Are the students doing poorly in those schools because they are poorly run/staffed/and funded, or is it the case that the students in those schools have more problems at home leading to poorer results? In other words, is this a problem schools can fix at all?
- nobody9999 5y ago
  >Are the students doing poorly in those schools because they are poorly run/staffed/and funded, or is it the case that the students in those schools have more problems at home leading to poorer results? There has been research (don't have it handy right now) that there's a negative feedback loop with that. Schools in poor areas tend to have less parental involvement (and direct economic support from those parents as is common in wealthier neighborhoods), so school staff don't have as many resources and aren't as incentivized to raise expectations of the students. That creates an environment where the students aren't learning as well as in other neighborhood schools. I suspect that if the authority figures on either side of that raise their expectations and requirements of the students, the negative feedback loop can be, at least partially, short-circuited. >In other words, is this a problem schools can fix at all? Yes. They can't do as much as schools with significantly more parental involvement, but improving the teacher/staff performance would likely improve parent performance. No, it's not a panacea, but blaming all this on poor parenting and throwing up our hands just promotes the centuries-old trope that "poor people are morally and intellectually inferior. It's obvious, if they weren't so they wouldn't be poor." That's circular reasoning and doesn't reflect reality.

ohCh6zos 5y ago

> In a situation with limited resources, increasing representation for all means decreasing representation for some. This is the natural conclusion to pushing for equality/representation. Then reject diversity.