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I just don't buy the premise that I will profit from spending a lot of time optimally customizing a text editor to my supposedly very unique and special needs.

I just don't buy the premise that I will profit from spending a lot of time optimally customizing a text editor to my supposedly very unique and special needs. Seems more like a weird para-work hobby than an actual productivity hack.

nikau 5y ago
> I just don't buy the premise that I will profit from spending a lot of time optimally customizing a text editor to my supposedly very unique and special needs. > Seems more like a weird para-work hobby than an actual productivity hack. Because you will use the skills for forty years throughout your career?
angelzen 5y ago
The set of unique and special needs follows a power law: you are going to get most of the benefits from a small set of very common commands. The long tail will be rarely used. Under a reasonable assumption that 'brain space' is finite, not filling it up with editor commands that may be used at most once a month will leave room for something more valuable instead. This applies for many other aspects in the life of an engineer: indiscriminately memorizing the options of ps/ls, specific APIs, etc.
bluedays 5y ago
Then don't. Just learn the basics. Learn how to use insert mode, edit some files, ignore anything not directly relevant. Eventually you'll come across a particular use case where opening a full blown IDE doesn't feel worth the effort, so you'll open vim. You'll learn a few shortcuts, because it would be nice to delete an entire line, or just look at the end of the file. What do you know `dd`, and `G` respectively do that for you. Eventually things will become easier in vim, and you'll just have another tool at your disposal. It took me years to begin to appreciate vim. I don't have a .vimrc, I use all the base settings. However, now that I know how to use vim it's become invaluable. The thing about vim is that it doesn't have to be complicated. It can be as easy or as hard as you want it to be.
- jpe90 5y ago
  > Eventually you'll come across a particular use case where opening a full blown IDE doesn't feel worth the effort, so you'll open vim. Imho there are strictly better options than vim for this nowadays for people who are not already invested in vim. Sublime text is easier for people that prefer GUIs. For CLI, Kakoune has better discoverability, better thought/more consistent commands, and actually usable colorschemes and syntax highlighting out of the box.
  - civilized 5y ago
    Yeah. It's pretty easy to delete a line in Sublime, and contrary to CLI fan wisdom, a single accurate trackpad gesture is simpler and faster than the barrage of commands needed to jump to a particular line. The studies that "prove" CLIs are faster than GUIs are decades old now, and my experience says they're obsolete.
    - echelon 5y ago
      Vim movements allow you to compose rich intentions with a matter of a few keystrokes. I find it very hard to believe that can be beat with a mouse unless someone is using gestures. More than anything, it's about not switching devices. Typing feels like playing the keyboard. Switching to the mouse feels like having to pick up a trombone between keys. (I know that's a bit dramatic of an analogy, but...)
      - civilized 5y ago
        Bringing up the old mouse makes this conversation sound so dated - as I said, I use a trackpad. Specifically, like millions of others, I work on a MacBook Pro with an incredibly precise trackpad right under the keyboard. I move my hand to and from that trackpad in about 0.1s, and I can click on anything I want in less than half a second. "Rich intentions in a few keystrokes" doesn't sound competitive with that IMO.
        rendall 5y ago
kovek 5y ago
Most text editors work in what vim calls "insert mode" Vim also has normal mode where every key has an effect on the editing. You can jump forward, backward, delete a word, a line, yank(copy), paste. readline and MacOS Cocoa also have interesting ctrl/alt+key combinations. It's useful. You can use those vim skills in most IDEs. So, your editing will be faster in those IDEs. I believe vscode is doing a better job at extensions UX than vim. These days, webkit is allowing a smoother experience than TUIs.
lawn 5y ago
I spend all days writing code in my editor, and will probably do so for many decades to come. Even small improvements will add up to to large differences over time.
- ihateolives 5y ago
  My speed of writing code (or anything else really apart from commenting on random websites) is limited mainly to my thought process about the logic I'm about to write. If you can code so fast that fractions of a second make a difference then more power to you but most people probably can't.
  - lawn 5y ago
    And I spend even more time reading and refactoring code than writing it. Vim has many improvements for both of these, and all these seconds here and there really adds up in the end.
theonemind 5y ago
I used vim as my primary editor for about 2 years. It was definitely the fastest way to edit text. However, editing text is pretty minor compared to time spent thinking. For me personally, I just find moded editing slightly grating. It would also be faster if I moved around at a break-neck sprint all of the time, but slightly tiresome and unpleasant. I had the same experience with vim. It was fast, tiresome, and unpleasant. Humans don't deal well with exceptions and moded interfaces. The background hum of hitting escape and confirming my mode or occasionally hitting keys in the wrong mode was just grating.
- stnmtn 5y ago
  After 2 years you still felt that way? I've been using it for ~5 years and felt that after a year or so having to think about vim melted away and it just feels like the natural way to edit text, I barely think about the modes I'm in anymore It's that line in the Matrix where he goes "Eventually you don't see the numbers. You just see blonde, redhead, brunette"
bravetraveler 5y ago
Customizing can definitely be a time sink, and I tend to agree. It's not portable! I'd rather know/use the defaults, there's benefit to be had there. Most importantly for me, it will be on every server I ever have to log into/maintain. GUI editors won't, and the hassle getting the output to where I need it doesn't fit well with workflows like mine. Also... the config management stuff I write (YAML/Python+Jinja) is well enough supported as-is. Don't need much more than indentation preservation... There's always a pane available to the side for ansible-doc/manual pages as a reference. The only unusual thing I carry around with me is this: alias vimtabs="vim -c ':tab all'" It just makes it easier to open many files in the same editor with simple shell globbing.
gegtik 5y ago
same here. vim is on every machine that I need, and if I become accustomed to non-standard bindings now I am burdened with context switching between personal-vim and standard-vim. I'd rather adapt to stock standard
asdff 5y ago
This is why I use nano. forgot one of the important keybinds? its right there on the footer.
heavyset_go 5y ago
Check out micro[1], there's no need to learn key shortcuts because it uses the same ones that every IDE or text editor ever uses. It also has full mouse support. [1] https://micro-editor.github.io/ https://micro-editor.github.io/
nemetroid 5y ago
I agree. My .vimrc, that I've used for the last ten years or so, is six lines long.
ashton314 5y ago
Wait until you get RSI. I’ve tried to cut down on the number of keystrokes I have to do something (Emacs user here, recently switched to evil-mode) and I’m more comfortable and productive. Do you customize your command line at all? What about your desktop? Keyboard? Chair? Office? Editor is just another part of the stack.

nikau 5y ago

> I just don't buy the premise that I will profit from spending a lot of time optimally customizing a text editor to my supposedly very unique and special needs. > Seems more like a weird para-work hobby than an actual productivity hack. Because you will use the skills for forty years throughout your career?

angelzen 5y ago

The set of unique and special needs follows a power law: you are going to get most of the benefits from a small set of very common commands. The long tail will be rarely used. Under a reasonable assumption that 'brain space' is finite, not filling it up with editor commands that may be used at most once a month will leave room for something more valuable instead. This applies for many other aspects in the life of an engineer: indiscriminately memorizing the options of ps/ls, specific APIs, etc.

bluedays 5y ago

Then don't. Just learn the basics. Learn how to use insert mode, edit some files, ignore anything not directly relevant. Eventually you'll come across a particular use case where opening a full blown IDE doesn't feel worth the effort, so you'll open vim. You'll learn a few shortcuts, because it would be nice to delete an entire line, or just look at the end of the file. What do you know `dd`, and `G` respectively do that for you. Eventually things will become easier in vim, and you'll just have another tool at your disposal. It took me years to begin to appreciate vim. I don't have a .vimrc, I use all the base settings. However, now that I know how to use vim it's become invaluable. The thing about vim is that it doesn't have to be complicated. It can be as easy or as hard as you want it to be.

jpe90 5y ago
> Eventually you'll come across a particular use case where opening a full blown IDE doesn't feel worth the effort, so you'll open vim. Imho there are strictly better options than vim for this nowadays for people who are not already invested in vim. Sublime text is easier for people that prefer GUIs. For CLI, Kakoune has better discoverability, better thought/more consistent commands, and actually usable colorschemes and syntax highlighting out of the box.
- civilized 5y ago
  Yeah. It's pretty easy to delete a line in Sublime, and contrary to CLI fan wisdom, a single accurate trackpad gesture is simpler and faster than the barrage of commands needed to jump to a particular line. The studies that "prove" CLIs are faster than GUIs are decades old now, and my experience says they're obsolete.
  - echelon 5y ago
    Vim movements allow you to compose rich intentions with a matter of a few keystrokes. I find it very hard to believe that can be beat with a mouse unless someone is using gestures. More than anything, it's about not switching devices. Typing feels like playing the keyboard. Switching to the mouse feels like having to pick up a trombone between keys. (I know that's a bit dramatic of an analogy, but...)
    - civilized 5y ago
      Bringing up the old mouse makes this conversation sound so dated - as I said, I use a trackpad. Specifically, like millions of others, I work on a MacBook Pro with an incredibly precise trackpad right under the keyboard. I move my hand to and from that trackpad in about 0.1s, and I can click on anything I want in less than half a second. "Rich intentions in a few keystrokes" doesn't sound competitive with that IMO.
      - rendall 5y ago

kovek 5y ago

Most text editors work in what vim calls "insert mode" Vim also has normal mode where every key has an effect on the editing. You can jump forward, backward, delete a word, a line, yank(copy), paste. readline and MacOS Cocoa also have interesting ctrl/alt+key combinations. It's useful. You can use those vim skills in most IDEs. So, your editing will be faster in those IDEs. I believe vscode is doing a better job at extensions UX than vim. These days, webkit is allowing a smoother experience than TUIs.

lawn 5y ago

I spend all days writing code in my editor, and will probably do so for many decades to come. Even small improvements will add up to to large differences over time.

ihateolives 5y ago
My speed of writing code (or anything else really apart from commenting on random websites) is limited mainly to my thought process about the logic I'm about to write. If you can code so fast that fractions of a second make a difference then more power to you but most people probably can't.
- lawn 5y ago
  And I spend even more time reading and refactoring code than writing it. Vim has many improvements for both of these, and all these seconds here and there really adds up in the end.

theonemind 5y ago

I used vim as my primary editor for about 2 years. It was definitely the fastest way to edit text. However, editing text is pretty minor compared to time spent thinking. For me personally, I just find moded editing slightly grating. It would also be faster if I moved around at a break-neck sprint all of the time, but slightly tiresome and unpleasant. I had the same experience with vim. It was fast, tiresome, and unpleasant. Humans don't deal well with exceptions and moded interfaces. The background hum of hitting escape and confirming my mode or occasionally hitting keys in the wrong mode was just grating.

stnmtn 5y ago
After 2 years you still felt that way? I've been using it for ~5 years and felt that after a year or so having to think about vim melted away and it just feels like the natural way to edit text, I barely think about the modes I'm in anymore It's that line in the Matrix where he goes "Eventually you don't see the numbers. You just see blonde, redhead, brunette"

bravetraveler 5y ago

Customizing can definitely be a time sink, and I tend to agree. It's not portable! I'd rather know/use the defaults, there's benefit to be had there. Most importantly for me, it will be on every server I ever have to log into/maintain. GUI editors won't, and the hassle getting the output to where I need it doesn't fit well with workflows like mine. Also... the config management stuff I write (YAML/Python+Jinja) is well enough supported as-is. Don't need much more than indentation preservation... There's always a pane available to the side for ansible-doc/manual pages as a reference. The only unusual thing I carry around with me is this: alias vimtabs="vim -c ':tab all'" It just makes it easier to open many files in the same editor with simple shell globbing.

gegtik 5y ago

same here. vim is on every machine that I need, and if I become accustomed to non-standard bindings now I am burdened with context switching between personal-vim and standard-vim. I'd rather adapt to stock standard

asdff 5y ago

This is why I use nano. forgot one of the important keybinds? its right there on the footer.

heavyset_go 5y ago

Check out micro[1], there's no need to learn key shortcuts because it uses the same ones that every IDE or text editor ever uses. It also has full mouse support. [1] https://micro-editor.github.io/ https://micro-editor.github.io/

nemetroid 5y ago

I agree. My .vimrc, that I've used for the last ten years or so, is six lines long.

ashton314 5y ago

Wait until you get RSI. I’ve tried to cut down on the number of keystrokes I have to do something (Emacs user here, recently switched to evil-mode) and I’m more comfortable and productive. Do you customize your command line at all? What about your desktop? Keyboard? Chair? Office? Editor is just another part of the stack.