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> hijacks your cellular machinery No. It doesn't. This is completely ignorant misinformation. Your molecular machinery for creating proteins are doing so const

> hijacks your cellular machinery No. It doesn't. This is completely ignorant misinformation. Your molecular machinery for creating proteins are doing so constantly. Introducing a bit of code that produces a protein that looks like the virus is in no way "hijacking" your molecular machinery. Your machinery happily chugs along with every other of the 10s of thousands of other proteins being produced at the same time. Nothing is hijacked.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
twofornone 5y ago
You may not like the connotation of the word but if "hijack" can be used to refer to taking over something and repurposing it for yourself, then yes, this is a "hijacking". Especially when viruses are commonly described in the same way, since the mechanism and outcome is the same: an entity other than the human cell is controlling the output of the organelles. In any case this is a pedantic argument and changes absolutely nothing about any of my points, nor is it misinformation.
- daveguy 5y ago
  The entire purpose of these cells is to present foreign matter. It's no more highjacking than watching a movie is hijacking your optical neurons. It is simply presenting the information in the language of your immune system.
raxxorrax 5y ago
Technically it is nothing else than hijacking and it will lead to the cells death because it produces the foreign protein as instructed until it is killed by your immune system.
- fspeech 5y ago
  mRNA in cells are constantly degraded by nucleases. Half life is measured in hours. Not only that RNA itself is unstable at room temperature.
  - twofornone 5y ago
    And what about the spike protein, which becomes embedded in and expressed at the cell wall? What do wayward spike proteins do inside cells? What are the full consequences of your immune system suddenly attacking your own cells? Are you potentially inducing permanent or semi permanent autoimmune conditions? And such an autoimmune disease, if caused by the vaccine, would possibly be difficult to detect, especially on short timescales, and/or if no one is looking for them. Add in the stigma/silencing of professionals who criticize the vaccines and you're unlikely to get such research done/published, and it is a very real possibility that we just dosed hundreds of millions of people with a substance that may cause long term issues. There's plenty of room for uncertainty here. It is irresponsible to suggest otherwise, regardless of the media's manufactured consensus.
    - daveguy 5y ago
      [citation needed] Next time you read something on the internet that sounds like something you would reasonably like to believe, please ask for a citation before you spread misinformation. The cell types that produce it and display it are exactly the same cell types that do it for every bit of foreign protein your immune system needs to protect against. There is nothing sneaky or take-over or unnatural about this process that happens all the time in your body. Please stop.
      - twofornone 5y ago
        Why do you assume that people critical of the vaccines aren't consuming scientific literature? This source[1] cites the following from a dead link to the cdc website: >Upon entering the cell’s cytoplasm, the mRNA redirects some of the cell’s protein production machinery (of which ribosomes are the workhorse) to begin producing viral spike proteins. The produced spike proteins are then incorporated into and “displayed” on the host cell’s outer membrane surface If you want something meatier, here's a detailed source[2] discussing this very point, that because the spike protein is not manufactured with the rest of the virus, at least some S protein expression is expected at the cell surface from the vaccine, in contrast to a true covid infection. And this source links to multiple others on the same subject. People seem to presume that any information which reflects negatively on the vaccines is automatically misinformation and/or argued in bad faith. Its incredibly toxic to productive discussion. >The cell types that produce it and display it are exactly the same cell types that do it for every bit of foreign protein your immune system needs to protect against. I'm not sure what you're implying here - that its normal for your cells to absorb foreign RNA and manufacture inflammatory proteins that are then expressed on cell walls and used to induce what is effectively an autoimmune response? >There is nothing sneaky or take-over or unnatural about this process that happens all the time in your body. I'm not saying anything about this is "sneaky" but injecting mRNA with the purpose of manufacturing inflammatory proteins is hardly "natural". 1. https://www.acepnow.com/article/how-the-covid-19-mrna-vaccines-work-and-some-current-concerns/?singlepage=1&theme=print-friendly https://www.acepnow.com/article/how-the-covid-19-mrna-vaccin... 2. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-25589-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-25589-1
- daveguy 5y ago
  This is absolutely not how it works. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the RNA vaccine mechanism of action.
  - labawi 5y ago
    Before claiming other people don't know what they're talking about, it would be polite sufficiently understand it and refrain from making false claims yourself. > When a vaccinated cell dies, the debris will contain many spike proteins and protein fragments, which can then be taken up by a type of immune cell called an antigen-presenting cell. [1] Is it true that host cells need to die for the vaccine to take effect? I'm not entirely sure and couldn't find good sources to verify or disprove OPs claim, but I recall some claims that the vaccine kills cells. > it will lead to the cells death because it produces the foreign protein as instructed until it is killed by your immune system. Different sites have different descriptions, but even [2] mentions: > The priming of CD8 T cells can induce the formation of cytotoxic T lymphocytes (5b) which are capable of directly killing infected cells. Which likely means killing cells presenting the vaccine spikes? Most sites mention some form of cytotoxic action or reponse, which I do not understand, but I take it to mean that some cells are killed. [1] https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/explained-a-visual-guide-to-how-the-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-works-1.4436433 https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/expl... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7918810/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7918810/
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - daveguy 5y ago
      The Irish Times is not a primary source. Try again. > ... but I recall some claims that the vaccine kills cells. You are spreading your own ignorance.
      - labawi 5y ago
        Have I claimed it is a primary source? I have listed a source, as my time is limited. If you disagree feel free to list a better one. You have listed exactly 0 sources for your claims. By logic, you are the one spreading your own ignorance. I would especially be interested in a source claiming APCs transcribe RNA to present antigens; that antigens enter the cells; and that they (rather than you) are full of it. Note, I think both you and OP presented false claims and misconception. OP probably more, but it is you that will help spread and affirm more anti-vaxers with the - you're wrong, here's what I think, now shut up and take the jab - attitude towards their concerns.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

twofornone 5y ago

You may not like the connotation of the word but if "hijack" can be used to refer to taking over something and repurposing it for yourself, then yes, this is a "hijacking". Especially when viruses are commonly described in the same way, since the mechanism and outcome is the same: an entity other than the human cell is controlling the output of the organelles. In any case this is a pedantic argument and changes absolutely nothing about any of my points, nor is it misinformation.

daveguy 5y ago
The entire purpose of these cells is to present foreign matter. It's no more highjacking than watching a movie is hijacking your optical neurons. It is simply presenting the information in the language of your immune system.

raxxorrax 5y ago

Technically it is nothing else than hijacking and it will lead to the cells death because it produces the foreign protein as instructed until it is killed by your immune system.

fspeech 5y ago
mRNA in cells are constantly degraded by nucleases. Half life is measured in hours. Not only that RNA itself is unstable at room temperature.
- twofornone 5y ago
  And what about the spike protein, which becomes embedded in and expressed at the cell wall? What do wayward spike proteins do inside cells? What are the full consequences of your immune system suddenly attacking your own cells? Are you potentially inducing permanent or semi permanent autoimmune conditions? And such an autoimmune disease, if caused by the vaccine, would possibly be difficult to detect, especially on short timescales, and/or if no one is looking for them. Add in the stigma/silencing of professionals who criticize the vaccines and you're unlikely to get such research done/published, and it is a very real possibility that we just dosed hundreds of millions of people with a substance that may cause long term issues. There's plenty of room for uncertainty here. It is irresponsible to suggest otherwise, regardless of the media's manufactured consensus.
  - daveguy 5y ago
    [citation needed] Next time you read something on the internet that sounds like something you would reasonably like to believe, please ask for a citation before you spread misinformation. The cell types that produce it and display it are exactly the same cell types that do it for every bit of foreign protein your immune system needs to protect against. There is nothing sneaky or take-over or unnatural about this process that happens all the time in your body. Please stop.
    - twofornone 5y ago
      Why do you assume that people critical of the vaccines aren't consuming scientific literature? This source[1] cites the following from a dead link to the cdc website: >Upon entering the cell’s cytoplasm, the mRNA redirects some of the cell’s protein production machinery (of which ribosomes are the workhorse) to begin producing viral spike proteins. The produced spike proteins are then incorporated into and “displayed” on the host cell’s outer membrane surface If you want something meatier, here's a detailed source[2] discussing this very point, that because the spike protein is not manufactured with the rest of the virus, at least some S protein expression is expected at the cell surface from the vaccine, in contrast to a true covid infection. And this source links to multiple others on the same subject. People seem to presume that any information which reflects negatively on the vaccines is automatically misinformation and/or argued in bad faith. Its incredibly toxic to productive discussion. >The cell types that produce it and display it are exactly the same cell types that do it for every bit of foreign protein your immune system needs to protect against. I'm not sure what you're implying here - that its normal for your cells to absorb foreign RNA and manufacture inflammatory proteins that are then expressed on cell walls and used to induce what is effectively an autoimmune response? >There is nothing sneaky or take-over or unnatural about this process that happens all the time in your body. I'm not saying anything about this is "sneaky" but injecting mRNA with the purpose of manufacturing inflammatory proteins is hardly "natural". 1. https://www.acepnow.com/article/how-the-covid-19-mrna-vaccines-work-and-some-current-concerns/?singlepage=1&theme=print-friendly https://www.acepnow.com/article/how-the-covid-19-mrna-vaccin... 2. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-25589-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-25589-1
daveguy 5y ago
This is absolutely not how it works. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the RNA vaccine mechanism of action.
- labawi 5y ago
  Before claiming other people don't know what they're talking about, it would be polite sufficiently understand it and refrain from making false claims yourself. > When a vaccinated cell dies, the debris will contain many spike proteins and protein fragments, which can then be taken up by a type of immune cell called an antigen-presenting cell. [1] Is it true that host cells need to die for the vaccine to take effect? I'm not entirely sure and couldn't find good sources to verify or disprove OPs claim, but I recall some claims that the vaccine kills cells. > it will lead to the cells death because it produces the foreign protein as instructed until it is killed by your immune system. Different sites have different descriptions, but even [2] mentions: > The priming of CD8 T cells can induce the formation of cytotoxic T lymphocytes (5b) which are capable of directly killing infected cells. Which likely means killing cells presenting the vaccine spikes? Most sites mention some form of cytotoxic action or reponse, which I do not understand, but I take it to mean that some cells are killed. [1] https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/explained-a-visual-guide-to-how-the-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-works-1.4436433 https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/expl... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7918810/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7918810/
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - daveguy 5y ago
    The Irish Times is not a primary source. Try again. > ... but I recall some claims that the vaccine kills cells. You are spreading your own ignorance.
    - labawi 5y ago
      Have I claimed it is a primary source? I have listed a source, as my time is limited. If you disagree feel free to list a better one. You have listed exactly 0 sources for your claims. By logic, you are the one spreading your own ignorance. I would especially be interested in a source claiming APCs transcribe RNA to present antigens; that antigens enter the cells; and that they (rather than you) are full of it. Note, I think both you and OP presented false claims and misconception. OP probably more, but it is you that will help spread and affirm more anti-vaxers with the - you're wrong, here's what I think, now shut up and take the jab - attitude towards their concerns.