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The virus is very proinflammatory so it's not surprising that vaccines that simulate parts of the virus are also proinflammatory. There even appears to be a dos

The virus is very proinflammatory so it's not surprising that vaccines that simulate parts of the virus are also proinflammatory. There even appears to be a dose dependence: Moderna packs in a lot more than Pfizer-BNT. So there is a rational framework to think about this. What is bizarre is how people could in the same breath show a lot of fear of the vaccine but then brush off the risk from uncontrolled viral reproduction in one's body from an infection.

twofornone 5y ago
There are at least three reasons that an injection is not the same. 1. The sudden viral load is orders of magnitude larger than typical exposure and given the complexity of the immune system, may produce a different response. Also recall that unlike traditional vaccines this mRNA hijacks your cellular machinery to produce an inflammatory protein - so comparing it to past vaccines in this respect is invalid. 2. Again because of the complexity of the immune system, its possible that a sudden, massive injection of spike protein mRNA will not activate the immune system in the same way that a gradual infection by the full virus. 3. From what I've read, the spike protein when manufactured from snipped mRNA is then expressed on cell surfaces, in contrast to a true viral infection which releases the full viral particles into the bloodstream. This could induce autoimmune reactions which would explain many of the documented side effects. My main point though is that many in the vocal pro-vaccine crowd are underestimating the borderline chaotic complexity of the finely tuned chemical soup that is our biology. And we are injecting an engineered substance which we know is biologically active in a novel way. It's hubris to casually presume that we got this right the first time. Edit: for the programmers, think of it as a very clever and involved hack. And hacks can have unintended side effects, especially when the system is poorly understood.
- daveguy 5y ago
  > hijacks your cellular machinery No. It doesn't. This is completely ignorant misinformation. Your molecular machinery for creating proteins are doing so constantly. Introducing a bit of code that produces a protein that looks like the virus is in no way "hijacking" your molecular machinery. Your machinery happily chugs along with every other of the 10s of thousands of other proteins being produced at the same time. Nothing is hijacked.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - twofornone 5y ago
    You may not like the connotation of the word but if "hijack" can be used to refer to taking over something and repurposing it for yourself, then yes, this is a "hijacking". Especially when viruses are commonly described in the same way, since the mechanism and outcome is the same: an entity other than the human cell is controlling the output of the organelles. In any case this is a pedantic argument and changes absolutely nothing about any of my points, nor is it misinformation.
    - daveguy 5y ago
      The entire purpose of these cells is to present foreign matter. It's no more highjacking than watching a movie is hijacking your optical neurons. It is simply presenting the information in the language of your immune system.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    Technically it is nothing else than hijacking and it will lead to the cells death because it produces the foreign protein as instructed until it is killed by your immune system.
    - fspeech 5y ago
      mRNA in cells are constantly degraded by nucleases. Half life is measured in hours. Not only that RNA itself is unstable at room temperature.
      - twofornone 5y ago
        And what about the spike protein, which becomes embedded in and expressed at the cell wall? What do wayward spike proteins do inside cells? What are the full consequences of your immune system suddenly attacking your own cells? Are you potentially inducing permanent or semi permanent autoimmune conditions? And such an autoimmune disease, if caused by the vaccine, would possibly be difficult to detect, especially on short timescales, and/or if no one is looking for them. Add in the stigma/silencing of professionals who criticize the vaccines and you're unlikely to get such research done/published, and it is a very real possibility that we just dosed hundreds of millions of people with a substance that may cause long term issues. There's plenty of room for uncertainty here. It is irresponsible to suggest otherwise, regardless of the media's manufactured consensus.

twofornone 5y ago

There are at least three reasons that an injection is not the same. 1. The sudden viral load is orders of magnitude larger than typical exposure and given the complexity of the immune system, may produce a different response. Also recall that unlike traditional vaccines this mRNA hijacks your cellular machinery to produce an inflammatory protein - so comparing it to past vaccines in this respect is invalid. 2. Again because of the complexity of the immune system, its possible that a sudden, massive injection of spike protein mRNA will not activate the immune system in the same way that a gradual infection by the full virus. 3. From what I've read, the spike protein when manufactured from snipped mRNA is then expressed on cell surfaces, in contrast to a true viral infection which releases the full viral particles into the bloodstream. This could induce autoimmune reactions which would explain many of the documented side effects. My main point though is that many in the vocal pro-vaccine crowd are underestimating the borderline chaotic complexity of the finely tuned chemical soup that is our biology. And we are injecting an engineered substance which we know is biologically active in a novel way. It's hubris to casually presume that we got this right the first time. Edit: for the programmers, think of it as a very clever and involved hack. And hacks can have unintended side effects, especially when the system is poorly understood.

daveguy 5y ago
> hijacks your cellular machinery No. It doesn't. This is completely ignorant misinformation. Your molecular machinery for creating proteins are doing so constantly. Introducing a bit of code that produces a protein that looks like the virus is in no way "hijacking" your molecular machinery. Your machinery happily chugs along with every other of the 10s of thousands of other proteins being produced at the same time. Nothing is hijacked.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- twofornone 5y ago
  You may not like the connotation of the word but if "hijack" can be used to refer to taking over something and repurposing it for yourself, then yes, this is a "hijacking". Especially when viruses are commonly described in the same way, since the mechanism and outcome is the same: an entity other than the human cell is controlling the output of the organelles. In any case this is a pedantic argument and changes absolutely nothing about any of my points, nor is it misinformation.
  - daveguy 5y ago
    The entire purpose of these cells is to present foreign matter. It's no more highjacking than watching a movie is hijacking your optical neurons. It is simply presenting the information in the language of your immune system.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Technically it is nothing else than hijacking and it will lead to the cells death because it produces the foreign protein as instructed until it is killed by your immune system.
  - fspeech 5y ago
    mRNA in cells are constantly degraded by nucleases. Half life is measured in hours. Not only that RNA itself is unstable at room temperature.
    - twofornone 5y ago
      And what about the spike protein, which becomes embedded in and expressed at the cell wall? What do wayward spike proteins do inside cells? What are the full consequences of your immune system suddenly attacking your own cells? Are you potentially inducing permanent or semi permanent autoimmune conditions? And such an autoimmune disease, if caused by the vaccine, would possibly be difficult to detect, especially on short timescales, and/or if no one is looking for them. Add in the stigma/silencing of professionals who criticize the vaccines and you're unlikely to get such research done/published, and it is a very real possibility that we just dosed hundreds of millions of people with a substance that may cause long term issues. There's plenty of room for uncertainty here. It is irresponsible to suggest otherwise, regardless of the media's manufactured consensus.