6 ms·

Mousers vs. Keyboardists

33 points by whalliburton 18y ago

edw519 18y ago
Thanks, Hank, for bringing up a very important topic that we don't talk about enough. Interestingly, of all the things that retard adoption of new technologies, I think that the mouse is still the biggest one. I have customers with call centers and power users still on green screens and command lines. The switch to GUI has always been too expensive. When you have 4000 users, the cost of average call times going from 2 to 4 minutes adds up quickly. Make no mistake about it, for repetitve tasks, the keyboard is always faster than the mouse. "Alt" and "Ctrl" commands are cool and geeky, but like Hank says, who can remember them all? We need web apps with intuitive keyboard interfaces. Fkeys (they're on every keyboard) and single letter commands are easily adoptable. (Oh, you mean "C" brings up the Customer record, cool.) The ability to do this is as old as javascript. Once we developers take the GUI pain away from the power users, the big migrations can continue.
- j2d2 18y ago
  Fkeys (they're on every keyboard) and single letter commands are easily adoptable. I dig this one. On my mac, I always set it to let the F keys behave normally. I hit fn + an F key to change volume, etc. I map all my f keys in emacs to something useful and save plenty of time because of it.
biohacker42 18y ago
Keyboards aren't just about memory, they are a lot slower then the mouse if you don't have almost instinctive muscle memory. If you have to think what the key combo is, use the mouse. Every so often I'll start thinking that maybe a keyboard + mouse combo is the fastest most efficient way to go... on Windows. And then I see a windows developer for whom the keyboard has become an extension of his hands and he never touches the mouse. It's crushing to see that kind of speed and power. The speed and efficiency of the keyboard isn't just a lot faster, it is so much faster that it changes the way you work. But it's hard to get there, you have to find the commands, practice them, practice, practice, and all the while it would be easier to just reach for the mouse. And yet I've made it a goal of mine to always get better at using the keyboard. A little bit a time, I figure I'll have no need for a mouse when I'm 80 or so.
- tom_rath 18y ago
  Have you taken a full touch-typing course? Touch-typing (REAL touch-typing -- not practiced single-finger poke or custom-splayed hand peck) installs keyboard use in your cerebellum and removes the function of typing from your higher brain. A new alt-key should be as difficult to master as a new coffee mug: You look at it for a fraction of a second and then put it into regular use without any further thought. If you have to find keys, memorize them and 'practice, practice, practice', it's a sign you may need to master the basic tools of your profession first.
  - yters 18y ago
    http://www.typingsoft.com/stamina.htm http://www.typingsoft.com/stamina.htm Good, free, simple touch typing software I like. I used it to switch from qwerty to dvorak and have gone from a peak of 78 wpm to 100 wpm (5 char = 1 word) over the course of 2 years. I think I was able to regain ~60 wpm after about 2 months, and then I stopped practicing a lot. An especially useful feature is that you can specify your own text source, so I like to type a book I'm reading. In a way, it is a literature version of Guitar Hero. On a related note, Dictator is a good piece of software for speed reading. http://dictator.kieranholland.com/dictator.html http://dictator.kieranholland.com/dictator.html It uses the Rapid Serial Visual Presentation (RSVP) technique where words/phrases are flashed on the screen, so you don't have to scan a page. If you optimize the chunk size to the size you can take in instantaneously, the software greatly increases your reading speed (caveat, some stuff like tech reading is just inherently slow). It increased my reading speed by 300 wpm.
- ptn 18y ago
  Keyboards aren't just about memory, they are a lot slower then the mouse if you don't have almost instinctive muscle memory. Muscle memory is always instinctive, it's hardwired in the human brain. Everybody can teach his/her muscles to act "on their own" for a task as simple as this without that much practice. (Remapping your keys in your keyboard helps a lot for comfort.) But it's hard to get there, you have to find the commands, practice them, practice, practice, and all the while it would be easier to just reach for the mouse. I think the trick is to forget about "practising" and just do it. If the command is really helpful, you'll end up using a lot anyway, but the mindset is different (forced practise vs need).
maxklein 18y ago
The real problem with keyboarding is the TERRIBLE lack of consistency. Apart from a very few commands, most applications seem to just randomly select keyboard letters to map to tasks based on the first letter of the english word. When I switch to a german keyboard, the key stroke commands change again! I use my apple, and things are different again. It does not work. A UI has to be consistent, and keyboard commands are extremely inconsistent. Look at the vim style commands and compare them to the windows style commands. And another problem with keyboard commands is that there is no hint. How many people have gotten stuck in vim because the interface is not acting as expected? Using a gui to shut down an App, I look for an X and press it. Using a keyboard, it could be ctrl+q, ctrl+c, ESC, :q!, Alt+F4, Alt+B (German Systems), Alt+Q (English Systems) or exit(). It's TERRIBLE user interface design to have so many different ways of performing the same action on the same operating system. F1 works because it's always Help. The arrow keys work because they always mean the same thing. That's how keystroke commands should work: One combination, one meaning - all the time and everywhere! So when you learn that stuff, you know it. I don't want to invest my time in learning app specific shortcuts for applications that I don't use that often. And that are liable to change anytime. The state of keyboard control of software is broken, and has been broken for a long time. My suggestion for the fix - an OLED keyboard that switches to "command mode" when a button is pressed. So the commands are always in the same position with all apps, all layouts, all languages and stay consistent.
- orib 18y ago
  That's nothing to do with the keyboard and everything to do with bad UI. I could just as easily come up with a poorly thought out rant about how my options panel moves from "tools->options" on Windows to "edit->preferences" on Linux, how tab close buttons are placed wherever the user feels like, how tooltips are haphazardly added to an app, how sometimes the close button exits the app, other times it minimizes to the system tray, etc. A badly designed user interface sucks. There are lots of them out there.
  - maxklein 18y ago
    So which of the examples above (with the exit keystroke) is well designed, and which is not?
time_management 18y ago
I tend to go to the mouse as soon as I have to work with more than one window, but I think keyboarding wins long-term. In my opinion, the advantage of keyboarding is not due to its being faster, but the fact that, once learned, it doesn't break flow. The time lost due to mousing is trivial, but the compromise to flow is significant, at least for me. This is why hackers and gamers alike prefer to keyboard.
- Hexstream 18y ago
  "I tend to go to the mouse as soon as I have to work with more than one window" The particular window manager you're using might have something to do with that. I'm looking forward to upgrading to a tiling window manager, myself. When I'm done procrastinating.
jcromartie 18y ago
I was working on a project with another programmer, and there was this little "test" window and an icon that only showed up when you alt-tabbed to our app (it is a system-tray-only app). I simply assumed that the other guy knew about it and was going to take it out before release. Well, it stayed there for a long time, and the release got closer and closer. It finally got entered as a bug, and I asked the other developer "so you weren't going to remove it?" He said "I didn't know it was there. I don't really use alt-tab."
altano 18y ago
The difference between keyboard friendliness on OSX and Windows has always been fascinating to me. On OSX, even being able to tab between buttons in a modal dialogue is off-by-default. Opening folders in the Finder is cmd+O instead of just enter. I still have no idea to this day how to access the menu bar from the keyboard. Meanwhile on Windows, I spend 99% of my time on the keyboard, since both Explorer, Visual Studio, and all the other apps I use couldn't possibly be friendlier to shortcut keys. The consistency gets better with every release as well.
- bouncingsoul 18y ago
  Maybe helpful info: With dialog boxes on OS X you tap Return to use the highlighted option and Esc to select Cancel. (Notice how the keys' left-right position on the keyboard matches the dialog?) For the common "Don't Save | Cancel | Save..." dialog you can type Command-D to choose Don't Save. To get to the menu bar type Ctrl-F2. I think OS X definitely directs you toward using the mouse, but I've found that keyboard shortcuts do exist for most everything.
- cubix 18y ago
  If you're a keyboardist and use OSX, give QuickSilver a try. Awesome little app -- I hardly touch the mouse all day. I'm so dependent on QS that I look clumsy using a stock OSX install without it.
johnrob 18y ago
Oddly enough, I find that I have to put my hands on the keyboard to figure out what a particular emacs command is. My muscle memory has outlasted my 'brain' memory.
Hoff 18y ago
The My Favorite Text Editor debate might change its spots, but it just never gets old.
silentbicycle 18y ago
Where do mouse gestures fit in? It seems like they're in the "remembering lots of stuff" category (though there is less possible variation to the mouse signal, it only has so many buttons and relative movement/timing).
thomasmallen 18y ago
If you can't remember keyboard commands, programming idioms, etc. will be a bear.
jond2062 18y ago
Working in financial models all day in Excel, I can't imagine having to use the mouse for any more than 10% of my work. Keyboard shortcuts are so much faster that they basically render a mouse useless. It takes some getting used to and a bit of practice, but once you get comfortable with the keyboard, there's no turning back. I really only use the mouse for casual web browsing and solitaire.
hs 18y ago
as expertise goes, keyboard > mouse

33 points by whalliburton 18y ago

Thanks, Hank, for bringing up a very important topic that we don't talk about enough. Interestingly, of all the things that retard adoption of new technologies, I think that the mouse is still the biggest one. I have customers with call centers and power users still on green screens and command lines. The switch to GUI has always been too expensive. When you have 4000 users, the cost of average call times going from 2 to 4 minutes adds up quickly. Make no mistake about it, for repetitve tasks, the keyboard is always faster than the mouse. "Alt" and "Ctrl" commands are cool and geeky, but like Hank says, who can remember them all? We need web apps with intuitive keyboard interfaces. Fkeys (they're on every keyboard) and single letter commands are easily adoptable. (Oh, you mean "C" brings up the Customer record, cool.) The ability to do this is as old as javascript. Once we developers take the GUI pain away from the power users, the big migrations can continue.

j2d2 18y ago
Fkeys (they're on every keyboard) and single letter commands are easily adoptable. I dig this one. On my mac, I always set it to let the F keys behave normally. I hit fn + an F key to change volume, etc. I map all my f keys in emacs to something useful and save plenty of time because of it.

biohacker42 18y ago

Keyboards aren't just about memory, they are a lot slower then the mouse if you don't have almost instinctive muscle memory. If you have to think what the key combo is, use the mouse. Every so often I'll start thinking that maybe a keyboard + mouse combo is the fastest most efficient way to go... on Windows. And then I see a windows developer for whom the keyboard has become an extension of his hands and he never touches the mouse. It's crushing to see that kind of speed and power. The speed and efficiency of the keyboard isn't just a lot faster, it is so much faster that it changes the way you work. But it's hard to get there, you have to find the commands, practice them, practice, practice, and all the while it would be easier to just reach for the mouse. And yet I've made it a goal of mine to always get better at using the keyboard. A little bit a time, I figure I'll have no need for a mouse when I'm 80 or so.

tom_rath 18y ago
Have you taken a full touch-typing course? Touch-typing (REAL touch-typing -- not practiced single-finger poke or custom-splayed hand peck) installs keyboard use in your cerebellum and removes the function of typing from your higher brain. A new alt-key should be as difficult to master as a new coffee mug: You look at it for a fraction of a second and then put it into regular use without any further thought. If you have to find keys, memorize them and 'practice, practice, practice', it's a sign you may need to master the basic tools of your profession first.
- yters 18y ago
  http://www.typingsoft.com/stamina.htm http://www.typingsoft.com/stamina.htm Good, free, simple touch typing software I like. I used it to switch from qwerty to dvorak and have gone from a peak of 78 wpm to 100 wpm (5 char = 1 word) over the course of 2 years. I think I was able to regain ~60 wpm after about 2 months, and then I stopped practicing a lot. An especially useful feature is that you can specify your own text source, so I like to type a book I'm reading. In a way, it is a literature version of Guitar Hero. On a related note, Dictator is a good piece of software for speed reading. http://dictator.kieranholland.com/dictator.html http://dictator.kieranholland.com/dictator.html It uses the Rapid Serial Visual Presentation (RSVP) technique where words/phrases are flashed on the screen, so you don't have to scan a page. If you optimize the chunk size to the size you can take in instantaneously, the software greatly increases your reading speed (caveat, some stuff like tech reading is just inherently slow). It increased my reading speed by 300 wpm.
ptn 18y ago
Keyboards aren't just about memory, they are a lot slower then the mouse if you don't have almost instinctive muscle memory. Muscle memory is always instinctive, it's hardwired in the human brain. Everybody can teach his/her muscles to act "on their own" for a task as simple as this without that much practice. (Remapping your keys in your keyboard helps a lot for comfort.) But it's hard to get there, you have to find the commands, practice them, practice, practice, and all the while it would be easier to just reach for the mouse. I think the trick is to forget about "practising" and just do it. If the command is really helpful, you'll end up using a lot anyway, but the mindset is different (forced practise vs need).

maxklein 18y ago

The real problem with keyboarding is the TERRIBLE lack of consistency. Apart from a very few commands, most applications seem to just randomly select keyboard letters to map to tasks based on the first letter of the english word. When I switch to a german keyboard, the key stroke commands change again! I use my apple, and things are different again. It does not work. A UI has to be consistent, and keyboard commands are extremely inconsistent. Look at the vim style commands and compare them to the windows style commands. And another problem with keyboard commands is that there is no hint. How many people have gotten stuck in vim because the interface is not acting as expected? Using a gui to shut down an App, I look for an X and press it. Using a keyboard, it could be ctrl+q, ctrl+c, ESC, :q!, Alt+F4, Alt+B (German Systems), Alt+Q (English Systems) or exit(). It's TERRIBLE user interface design to have so many different ways of performing the same action on the same operating system. F1 works because it's always Help. The arrow keys work because they always mean the same thing. That's how keystroke commands should work: One combination, one meaning - all the time and everywhere! So when you learn that stuff, you know it. I don't want to invest my time in learning app specific shortcuts for applications that I don't use that often. And that are liable to change anytime. The state of keyboard control of software is broken, and has been broken for a long time. My suggestion for the fix - an OLED keyboard that switches to "command mode" when a button is pressed. So the commands are always in the same position with all apps, all layouts, all languages and stay consistent.

orib 18y ago
That's nothing to do with the keyboard and everything to do with bad UI. I could just as easily come up with a poorly thought out rant about how my options panel moves from "tools->options" on Windows to "edit->preferences" on Linux, how tab close buttons are placed wherever the user feels like, how tooltips are haphazardly added to an app, how sometimes the close button exits the app, other times it minimizes to the system tray, etc. A badly designed user interface sucks. There are lots of them out there.
- maxklein 18y ago
  So which of the examples above (with the exit keystroke) is well designed, and which is not?

time_management 18y ago

I tend to go to the mouse as soon as I have to work with more than one window, but I think keyboarding wins long-term. In my opinion, the advantage of keyboarding is not due to its being faster, but the fact that, once learned, it doesn't break flow. The time lost due to mousing is trivial, but the compromise to flow is significant, at least for me. This is why hackers and gamers alike prefer to keyboard.

Hexstream 18y ago
"I tend to go to the mouse as soon as I have to work with more than one window" The particular window manager you're using might have something to do with that. I'm looking forward to upgrading to a tiling window manager, myself. When I'm done procrastinating.

jcromartie 18y ago

I was working on a project with another programmer, and there was this little "test" window and an icon that only showed up when you alt-tabbed to our app (it is a system-tray-only app). I simply assumed that the other guy knew about it and was going to take it out before release. Well, it stayed there for a long time, and the release got closer and closer. It finally got entered as a bug, and I asked the other developer "so you weren't going to remove it?" He said "I didn't know it was there. I don't really use alt-tab."

altano 18y ago

The difference between keyboard friendliness on OSX and Windows has always been fascinating to me. On OSX, even being able to tab between buttons in a modal dialogue is off-by-default. Opening folders in the Finder is cmd+O instead of just enter. I still have no idea to this day how to access the menu bar from the keyboard. Meanwhile on Windows, I spend 99% of my time on the keyboard, since both Explorer, Visual Studio, and all the other apps I use couldn't possibly be friendlier to shortcut keys. The consistency gets better with every release as well.

bouncingsoul 18y ago
Maybe helpful info: With dialog boxes on OS X you tap Return to use the highlighted option and Esc to select Cancel. (Notice how the keys' left-right position on the keyboard matches the dialog?) For the common "Don't Save | Cancel | Save..." dialog you can type Command-D to choose Don't Save. To get to the menu bar type Ctrl-F2. I think OS X definitely directs you toward using the mouse, but I've found that keyboard shortcuts do exist for most everything.
cubix 18y ago
If you're a keyboardist and use OSX, give QuickSilver a try. Awesome little app -- I hardly touch the mouse all day. I'm so dependent on QS that I look clumsy using a stock OSX install without it.

johnrob 18y ago

Oddly enough, I find that I have to put my hands on the keyboard to figure out what a particular emacs command is. My muscle memory has outlasted my 'brain' memory.

Hoff 18y ago

The My Favorite Text Editor debate might change its spots, but it just never gets old.

silentbicycle 18y ago

Where do mouse gestures fit in? It seems like they're in the "remembering lots of stuff" category (though there is less possible variation to the mouse signal, it only has so many buttons and relative movement/timing).

thomasmallen 18y ago

If you can't remember keyboard commands, programming idioms, etc. will be a bear.

jond2062 18y ago

Working in financial models all day in Excel, I can't imagine having to use the mouse for any more than 10% of my work. Keyboard shortcuts are so much faster that they basically render a mouse useless. It takes some getting used to and a bit of practice, but once you get comfortable with the keyboard, there's no turning back. I really only use the mouse for casual web browsing and solitaire.

hs 18y ago

as expertise goes, keyboard > mouse