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I really hope this doesn’t go away. My self directed IRA in Bitcoin has led me to prosperity. There was no other way to do it with my retirement funds really.

jcims 5y ago
I need to subscribe to your newsletter. Mine has mostly reminded me that I'm not a skilled investor.
UncleMeat 5y ago
You've already won then. Why complain?
- streblo 5y ago
  What's wrong with winning? Why not let people keep winning?
  - eli 5y ago
    What's wrong with paying taxes when you're winning?
    - streblo 5y ago
      Nothing. You still pay taxes on withdrawals from a traditional IRA.
      - mactrey 5y ago
        So why not just invest in Bitcoin outside of your tax-advantaged accounts?
        streblo 5y ago
        Why not invest inside of your tax-advantaged accounts as well?
  - wpietri 5y ago
    Because Bitcoin is a negative-sum enterprise. For the average speculator, total number of dollars out will be less than the total number of dollars in. That's exactly the opposite of what we want people to be doing with tax-advantaged retirement accounts.
  - UncleMeat 5y ago
    The purpose of tax advantaged retirement accounts is to reduce the number of destitute people in retirement. It achieves this goal by providing a tax incentive on regular investment for people who would not otherwise invest. If you won the lottery on crypto then you aren't going to be destitute in retirement. Pay the capital gains and enjoy your wealth. Similarly, if you are a high earner and can afford to take advantage of things like the megabackdoor then you aren't going to be destitute in retirement. Pay the capital gains and enjoy your wealth.
    - streblo 5y ago
      > The purpose of tax advantaged retirement accounts is to reduce the number of destitute people in retirement. It achieves this goal by providing a tax incentive on regular investment for people who would not otherwise invest. The purpose of tax advantage retirement accounts when originally introduced by ERISA was to give employees of private companies a safety net in cases where their pension defaulted or when a pension wasn't offered in the first place. There's really no mention of it being specifically for people who are destitute or would not otherwise invest. Traditional IRAs are available for everyone, even high earners, no gatekeeping. > Pay the capital gains and enjoy your wealth. Traditional IRAs are taxed on withdrawal and function much like other investments.
      - UncleMeat 5y ago
        If there is no benefit to the IRA, then why are you upset? Tax breaks exist to promote prosocial behavior. Getting people who are struggling to be able to afford to save for retirement is good for society. Giving people who made it big with a lucky gamble a benefit is just good for that individual.
        streblo 5y ago
        In this case it's good for the individual without being detrimental to society.
        5y ago
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  You know that some people care about how policies affect people other than themselves, right? They may even care about society as a whole.
  - UncleMeat 5y ago
    I really don't see how enabling people to make wild fortunes in tax advantaged accounts if they get lucky in cryptocurrency is good for society as whole. The default is taxable accounts. Things like IRAs and 401ks are exceptions carved out to encourage the population to invest so that they don't end up eating cat food at age 80. People building huge fortunes in their IRAs isn't achieving this goal.
- seabird 5y ago
  Because he feels that it's wrong that he made a lot of money doing something that other middle income earners could reasonably do, but now the ladder is getting pulled up behind him? This is no skin off the back of the wealthy. They'll find another trick and life will go on. For those of them that actually care about "normal" Americans being able to do the same thing they did, it feels a little wrong that it requires an ever increasing amount moving parts and money to do what they did.
  - mistrial9 5y ago
    > This is no skin off the back of the wealthy it is overly simplistic in USA - real people lose their "wealthy" status every day. You think a "wealthy" restaurant or bar owner is having a good day in 2021? this class-baiting comes from the previous century, and IMO detracts from real problems right now
    - seabird 5y ago
      "Wealthy" in the context of most of the discussion surrounding this change are those with millions or billions in Roth IRAs. Those people's accountants will figure out a new strategy where they might have to pay a negligible amount in tax (if any at all). This change will be a few weeks of headache before it's largely forgotten. The only thing this will do for a struggling restaurant or bar owner in 2021 is ensure that they can't use money from their IRA to support their business. I don't entirely understand what you're construing as class baiting. You don't have to have any contempt for the incredibly wealthy to acknowledge that they're going to walk away from this with extremely minimal losses, while your average person with a Roth IRA account won't be able to use it for starting or supporting their own business.
- JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
  I’d like others to win.
cortesoft 5y ago
Why shouldn't you pay taxes on profits made speculating?
- wonderwonder 5y ago
  Is not all investment speculating? Very few investment classes provide 100% guaranteed returns.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    You pay capital gains taxes on the majority of gains made via investment. This change is intended to prevent the abuse of Roth IRAs as a way to shield potentially enormous capital gains from taxation.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      If that was true then they could simply cap the amount that was exempt from taxation.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
        I agree that this would be an alternate approach to tackling the issue, and to be honest, from what I've read so far, would be my preference.
        lotsofpulp 5y ago
        Anytime you see politicians avoid a straight forward, transparent solution, for an opaque one, assume there are political games being played resulting in winners and losers. Just like why a person working for a company offering 401k is allowed to save $19k in a tax advantaged retirement account, but a person working at a small sandwich shop not offering a 401k is only allowed to save $6k in a tax advantaged retirement account.
- notyourday 5y ago

jcims 5y ago

I need to subscribe to your newsletter. Mine has mostly reminded me that I'm not a skilled investor.

UncleMeat 5y ago

You've already won then. Why complain?

streblo 5y ago
What's wrong with winning? Why not let people keep winning?
- eli 5y ago
  What's wrong with paying taxes when you're winning?
  - streblo 5y ago
    Nothing. You still pay taxes on withdrawals from a traditional IRA.
    - mactrey 5y ago
      So why not just invest in Bitcoin outside of your tax-advantaged accounts?
      - streblo 5y ago
        Why not invest inside of your tax-advantaged accounts as well?
- wpietri 5y ago
  Because Bitcoin is a negative-sum enterprise. For the average speculator, total number of dollars out will be less than the total number of dollars in. That's exactly the opposite of what we want people to be doing with tax-advantaged retirement accounts.
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  The purpose of tax advantaged retirement accounts is to reduce the number of destitute people in retirement. It achieves this goal by providing a tax incentive on regular investment for people who would not otherwise invest. If you won the lottery on crypto then you aren't going to be destitute in retirement. Pay the capital gains and enjoy your wealth. Similarly, if you are a high earner and can afford to take advantage of things like the megabackdoor then you aren't going to be destitute in retirement. Pay the capital gains and enjoy your wealth.
  - streblo 5y ago
    > The purpose of tax advantaged retirement accounts is to reduce the number of destitute people in retirement. It achieves this goal by providing a tax incentive on regular investment for people who would not otherwise invest. The purpose of tax advantage retirement accounts when originally introduced by ERISA was to give employees of private companies a safety net in cases where their pension defaulted or when a pension wasn't offered in the first place. There's really no mention of it being specifically for people who are destitute or would not otherwise invest. Traditional IRAs are available for everyone, even high earners, no gatekeeping. > Pay the capital gains and enjoy your wealth. Traditional IRAs are taxed on withdrawal and function much like other investments.
    - UncleMeat 5y ago
      If there is no benefit to the IRA, then why are you upset? Tax breaks exist to promote prosocial behavior. Getting people who are struggling to be able to afford to save for retirement is good for society. Giving people who made it big with a lucky gamble a benefit is just good for that individual.
      - streblo 5y ago
        In this case it's good for the individual without being detrimental to society.
        5y ago
bpodgursky 5y ago
You know that some people care about how policies affect people other than themselves, right? They may even care about society as a whole.
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  I really don't see how enabling people to make wild fortunes in tax advantaged accounts if they get lucky in cryptocurrency is good for society as whole. The default is taxable accounts. Things like IRAs and 401ks are exceptions carved out to encourage the population to invest so that they don't end up eating cat food at age 80. People building huge fortunes in their IRAs isn't achieving this goal.
seabird 5y ago
Because he feels that it's wrong that he made a lot of money doing something that other middle income earners could reasonably do, but now the ladder is getting pulled up behind him? This is no skin off the back of the wealthy. They'll find another trick and life will go on. For those of them that actually care about "normal" Americans being able to do the same thing they did, it feels a little wrong that it requires an ever increasing amount moving parts and money to do what they did.
- mistrial9 5y ago
  > This is no skin off the back of the wealthy it is overly simplistic in USA - real people lose their "wealthy" status every day. You think a "wealthy" restaurant or bar owner is having a good day in 2021? this class-baiting comes from the previous century, and IMO detracts from real problems right now
  - seabird 5y ago
    "Wealthy" in the context of most of the discussion surrounding this change are those with millions or billions in Roth IRAs. Those people's accountants will figure out a new strategy where they might have to pay a negligible amount in tax (if any at all). This change will be a few weeks of headache before it's largely forgotten. The only thing this will do for a struggling restaurant or bar owner in 2021 is ensure that they can't use money from their IRA to support their business. I don't entirely understand what you're construing as class baiting. You don't have to have any contempt for the incredibly wealthy to acknowledge that they're going to walk away from this with extremely minimal losses, while your average person with a Roth IRA account won't be able to use it for starting or supporting their own business.
JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
I’d like others to win.

cortesoft 5y ago

Why shouldn't you pay taxes on profits made speculating?

wonderwonder 5y ago
Is not all investment speculating? Very few investment classes provide 100% guaranteed returns.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  You pay capital gains taxes on the majority of gains made via investment. This change is intended to prevent the abuse of Roth IRAs as a way to shield potentially enormous capital gains from taxation.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    If that was true then they could simply cap the amount that was exempt from taxation.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      I agree that this would be an alternate approach to tackling the issue, and to be honest, from what I've read so far, would be my preference.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        Anytime you see politicians avoid a straight forward, transparent solution, for an opaque one, assume there are political games being played resulting in winners and losers. Just like why a person working for a company offering 401k is allowed to save $19k in a tax advantaged retirement account, but a person working at a small sandwich shop not offering a 401k is only allowed to save $6k in a tax advantaged retirement account.
notyourday 5y ago