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Retired Husband Syndrome
- warrenm 5y agoThis isn't limited merely to Japan - just about everyone I know who's retired (either per force (eg due to injury or aging-out of their job), or by choice) HAS to go out and do something ... or they go [sometimes literally] crazy
- alistairSH 5y agoBut the Japanese syndrome is about the spouse of the retiree, not the retiree himself. I saw this with my parents - mom retired a few years before dad. When he eventually retired, he drove her nuts for a while. After 9 months or so, they found a new rhythm. But I agree - the retiree needs a hobby for their own sanity. My parents took up nature photography. My father-in-law got serious about bowling.
- warrenm 5y agoIt affects the spouse, too - you get used to one way of living (eg - spouse is gone from the house 50-60h per week), and when that suddenly changes ... it takes serious adjustment by all parties
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago> the woman was to be not only a homemaker but also to show a level of adoration for her salaryman husband as reward for his bringing in the money she used to look after their children and socialize with her friends. I don't get it. What kind of reward for the husband is the fact that she socializes with her friends?
- jrace 5y agoHis reward is " a level of adoration" which she awards to him for enabling her to socialize.
- fishtacos 5y agoHappy wife.
- OJFord 5y agoWrong conjunct binding - not: > reward (for his bringing in the money she used to look after their children) and [that she] socialize[d] with her friends. (err.. or something, not sure exactly how you read it) but: > reward for his bringing in the money she used to (look after their children and socialize with her friends).
- gremloni 5y agoThis really is a perfect setup for both men and women. We need to fully return to this paradigm.
- bamboozled 5y agoI don't know if you're serious but I do think that it might be better if one of the two stays home and does shit. It just seems simpler. Not saying it has to be a women, but it's ultra stressful when both people are working full-time, especially if one or both partners aren't open to the idea of hiring cleaners etc. Where is the leisure time?
- gremloni 5y agoI’m being completely serious and it should mostly be the women at home.
- recursive 5y agoYou didn't even mention kids, which adds a new dimension of stress.
- tlear 5y agoYou basically have 3 choices then: 1. Hire a full time nanny 2. Have grandparents act as 1 3. Go fucking mental
- gremloni 5y agoStop your wife from working and do what she’s meant to do.
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y agoIn this way you basically destroy her professional career, make her 100% dependable on you financially and severely impair her life choices. Who would like to live a life like that today?
- yosamino 5y agoIt's keeping the family part of the community. One can think of it as the actual social network. Through friendly interactions with the other housewife's around, relevant knowledge about the going on in the community is shared. It helps with finding reliable tradespeople and doctors and other things of this nature. And just from an empathic point of view: If I was a worker who was away from home 12 hours a day, I would want for my partner to have a good life with happyness and joy while I am away. Of course it's better to come home to a person who feels she is living a fulfilled life, rather than someone who has been lonley the whole day. Makes you feel as if the long hours are actually making a difference.
- hungryforcodes 5y agoThe article talks only about how stressful it is for the woman -- and nothing about how the man feels. Seems incrediably like "I used to party with my friends, but now my husband is around alot. So boring!" You would think in well aligned couples this would be the opportunity to go and tour the world together or get divorced a find new partners.
- jbd28 5y agoIt highlights how she’s expected to be his servant, AND if she dares to leave she’s not entitled to any pension leaving her with no income options. Who sounds trapped in this scenario?
- matthewdgreen 5y agoI think the entire point here is that the couples are not well-aligned, and traditional societal expectations do not encourage them to be.
- hungryforcodes 5y agoThats a good point -- totally agree with you :)
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- onceiwasthere 5y agoBut the subject of the wiki page is the observed effects on wives (specifically in Japanese culture), not husbands. There's surely plenty of literature out there on how retired people feel.
- hungryforcodes 5y agoAnd? That it only talks about women's and not men's experiences is for sure a fair criticism.
- ccozan 5y agohah, after being all my time working in a office from early till evening, after the pandemics hit in, we ( as couple ) have quite the same issue. Wife very stressed just by me being/working at home all the time and not feelling "free". So...very similar to this RHS.
- rossdavidh 5y agoAnecdotally I have heard of similar phenomena among retired professional athletes (no longer on the road for a good part of every year) and soldiers returning home after extended tours of duty (e.g. post-Iraq and Afghanistan). Obviously each of these is different in important ways, but perhaps not entirely different.
- dougSF70 5y agoThere is also evidence to show that we retain 25% of the same personality traits that we had as 20 year olds, as we age. I think David Epstein's book, Range, references this. So we really do become a different person.
- habeebtc 5y agoThank God for that.
- ekianjo 5y ago> 25% of the same personality traits Good luck quantifying that without too much snake oil.
- dougSF70 5y agoI think they used the well-established and well-researched personality methodology called OCEAN. This has been well documented as being able to identify the big five traits (OPENNESS, CONSCIENTIOUSNESS, EXTRAVERSION, AGREEABLENESS, NEUROTICISM) and its sub traits. This framework was then used by Aleksandr Kogan to profile and harvest facebook users - who then sold it to Cambridge Analytica..etc. By relying somewhat on self-selection Aleksandr's firm was able to profile facebook users. Since there was no second-guessing by the subject of the test as what a "question might say about them" I think it was pretty robust methodology. And then when you look at the impact of his work, you can see it was effective. Not sure there is any snake oil to be found here.
- anotherman554 5y agoI've taken one of those big 5 tests, it's based on self reported answers to survey questions. While I would not call it snake oil, if self reports are not a reliable method of understanding people, it's fancy nonsense. (Like most psychology, it seems it may or may not be B.S.) I googled the Cambridge thing you mentioned and the first article that came up said it wasn't particularly accurate and was mostly just profiling based on demographics. (Shrug).
- dicytea 5y agoIt's interesting that the Japanese version of the article itself is 5 times shorter with barely any elaboration.
- utucuro 5y agoThe Japanese version can assume some knowledge about the functioning of Japanese business life on the part of the reader which the English article must explain before the actual phenomenon can be explained understandably.
- Iv 5y agoNo, it is missing several important information.
- goatcode 5y ago"Is that everything? I mean, it seemed like he said quite a bit more than that." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXGXZiX0pCA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXGXZiX0pCA
- jrace 5y agoWhen I was younger I worked at a trucking company. This included both long-haul (gone for 1 week or more) and short-haul (gone for 12-14hrs). A common thing I heard in the break-room was "If I worked a normal job I would be divorced by now".
- kamaal 5y agoLiving with other people, even with one's spouse or children really doesn't mean they want to seeing each other every minute of their lives. There needs to be an healthy amount of time that is both enjoyable, which is not too much to be invasive of one's privacy nor too less to make the other person feel lonely.
- xyzzy_plugh 5y agoI know a few retired business execs or owners who got bought out and for the most part they are miserable. No good hobbies, no schedule. For the most part they just boss around their families, driving them nuts. I think we're lucky in that for most of us our hobbies and work intersect, at least to some degree, such that even in retirement, if we're truly idle, we can still write software.
- alexpetralia 5y agoWe need social relevance.
- dmos62 5y agoVolunteering can be good.
- slothtrop 5y agoThe menial work generally associated with volunteering is less satisfying than commanding your enterprise or just developing software. Though that itself, to an extent, can be volunteered. Can always start or join a non-profit that tackles problems of interest.
- mattcwilson 5y agoYou’re entirely missing the value of volunteering. If you don’t take joy, pride, humility, and reward in the feeling of genuinely doing good work for entirely no benefit to yourself, volunteering isn’t for you.
- slothtrop 5y agoYou could tell me that washing dishes for a crowd would cure cancer and it would not fill me with joy, pride, humility or reward. That doesn't mean I never find reward in helping others in-person or otherwise, and in some instances there's a sense of moral duty. Ultimately most people favor volunteer work that suits them, even if they don't admit it. An easy way to confirm this is that there are usually more effective ways to be charitable qua saving lives than chosen avenues; that doesn't mean it isn't meaningful, but there is a selfish element. I would also consider those aforementioned emotions you listed as personal benefit. Those aren't elicited through mere rationalization, but human contact, which releases Oxytocin. They scale not with real-world impact (which can feel too abstracted) but social contact. That's why charities struggle.
- ekianjo 5y agoNow they give syndromes for every problem happening under the sun? That's entertaining. Is there also a "I am tired with school so I do stress eating Syndrome"?
- baal80spam 5y ago> Now they give syndromes for every problem happening under the sun? Only in the western world.
- AlwaysRock 5y agoThe article literately links to a Japanese study.
- ekianjo 5y agoJapan is kind of part of the Western world, you know. The Western world is not about the English language.
- AlwaysRock 5y agoI don't think so. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world
- bdsa 5y agoThis is a Japanese concept?
- jzig 5y agoDid they have salarymen before the West brought it to them?
- habeebtc 5y ago"Western" is a messy and relative concept. I can see how you could make an argument that Japan is a "Western" nation in some sense. They are technically a First World country, which is usually used as shorthand for Western countries. It's a lot easier to make the argument for the Philippines, but you get what I am saying probably.
- zwieback 5y agoNo retired wife syndrome?
- jrace 5y agoHow many "stay at home husbands" whose wives are approaching retirement do you think are in Japan?
- tlear 5y agoSource of $$ is now at home what to do what to do.. Dynamic is very interesting and is not at all limited to boomer generation. Most of the time neither spouse has any concept of what the other actually does day to day. You can ask a wife and she will say that he works for EPSON and is engineer, further question as to what sort of engineer or what is he working on or anything else will be just blank stare. It is like separation of concern principle but applies to marriage and family. Works great some times and some times not so much
- Jugurtha 5y agoMilitary brats dread their father's retirement like it's the end of the world because they feel he'll completely mess up the vibe being more present when they've only had a punctuated interaction with him for years. The retired adjust with varying levels of success. Everyone adjusts.
- the_lonely_road 5y agoNo they don’t. Maybe you did but this is classic projection. My fathers retirement has been awesome, we game together more than we ever did and he’s now able to be super active in his grandchildren’s lives the way he wasn’t in mine.
- ubermonkey 5y agoI mean, that you didn't experience this doesn't mean it's not a thing. I've absolutely seen it from military families I know, and it's absolutely a known phenomenon. It's great it wasn't an issue for you, though!
- Jugurtha 5y ago>No they don’t. That was a generalization based on how frequently I have observed this in "military families"; so frequently that I used that generalization because: "But Of Course There Are Obvious Exceptions" - Scott Adams. >Maybe you did but this is classic projection. I didn't say I did. I didn't say I didn't. Who knows. >My fathers retirement has been awesome, we game together more than we ever did and he’s now able to be super active in his grandchildren’s lives the way he wasn’t in mine. This is great. I'm happy for you. I wish I were wrong and everyone lived it the way it went down for you. This is really cool. Have other kids you knew had a similar experience to yours? If so, there may be something your father and their fathers are doing right, and families preparing well, and some preparation from their organizations, whether at the branch level or other. It'd be interesting to compare in case there's something that can be learned.
- jedimastert 5y agoMy dad sometimes talks about ow my grandfather used to have a picture framing business after he retired. Very rarely made anything past the bills, but he was on government pension and just needed to get out of the house. This reminds me of that. We still have some things that he framed (certificate of family name origin, some pictures and the like). It instantly bring classiness level up a ton, but man is it expensive.
- Loughla 5y ago>It instantly bring classiness level up a ton, but man is it expensive. We have the final sale bill from when the family farm was auctioned off. I thought it would be neat to frame it for my dad, as a memento (it was a retirement, not a loss). Holy shit is custom framing expensive. I was shocked, SHOCKED I TELL YOU, to hear that it was going to be ~$300 for the right glass and frame that size. I decided then that my woodworking needed to focus on framing if I ever wanted to make money. (and cutting boards/charcuterie boards)
- jedimastert 5y agoI really am fascinated by the premium. The work itself is a little specialized by not particularly difficult (especially now in the age of miter saws and widely available glass-cutting equipment). Maybe it's just the cost of materials? I assume most places don't make the more interesting frame designs in-house, but rather just order a catalog to have on hand, so that's money, but it's still rather surprising
- denton-scratch 5y agoFraming a picture properly seems to be horrifically expensive. A good-quality print costing EU50 (e.g.) costs EU150 to frame - if you're lucky.
- jamilbk 5y agoIn case anyone wants to read more on the subject, here is a recent study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8021876/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8021876/ > Conclusion > The results suggest the limited relevance of the “retired husband syndrome” among middle-aged Japanese couples. The effects of a husband’s retirement on the wife’s mental health depended heavily on her prior behavior.
- simonh 5y agoI wonder if the social conditions and expectations have changed, the syndrome was originally identified back in 1991. A lot can change in 30 years.
- da39a3ee 5y agoThis thread just seems to be revealing that Japanese culture is up there with the Taleban and Saudi Arabia when it comes to enlightened attitudes to women. > A failure of a smooth transition of the husband’s daily lifestyle may also increase his physical demand for his wife’s homemaking tasks
- jan_Inkepa 5y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4oydSZTAns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4oydSZTAns a comic poem touching on the transition to retired husband cohabitation in the UK by Pam Ayres.
- da39a3ee 5y agoThe article is sexist pseudoscientific crap. It could maybe be mentioned in an article on Japanese culture but the article in its current form shouldn’t be on EN wikipedia. I edited the introduction accordingly on Wikipedia, although I suspect it should be deleted entirely.
- da39a3ee 5y ago> Some women deal with RHS by focusing their energy on obsessions such as collecting teddy bears, or following a celebrity,[2] which they say can help them psychologically. Still doubt this is sexist bullshit?
- geoduck14 5y agoDoes HN do AMAs? I would REALLY like to hear from people who cashed out early and stopped working. What is your life like?
- disgruntledphd2 5y agoThere's Ask HN, which you could probably subvert for this purpose.
- AlwaysRock 5y agoMany people in here are not even clicking on the article and seem to just want to talk about how retirement can be good or bad for some men depending on if they sit around and do nothing or if they have some type of hobbies/work to keep them busy. All I have to say is I know a lot of retired men who get very very into woodworking. Me and the nice handmade end-tables I have are not complaining.
- denton-scratch 5y agoThis is not a Japanese specialty; lots of couples break up after the kids have flown the nest, and both partners have to put-up with one-another all day and all night. It's hardly surprising.
- readthenotes1 5y ago"I married you for better or worse but not for lunch" Not sure who said it first.
- visiblink 5y agoMy father became the maintenance man for an inner-city homeless mission after he retired. It was a great choice that gave him a purpose and got him out of the house. When he finally decided that it was time to quit (at 78), the manager told him he had to give two weeks' notice. Dad replied that he was a volunteer. Smart man. I'll be following his example.