7 ms·

I got involved in bitcoin after being blackballed from the (US) financial world while for 2-3 months while I was "investigated" in the most dystopianly opaque w

I got involved in bitcoin after being blackballed from the (US) financial world while for 2-3 months while I was "investigated" in the most dystopianly opaque way possible. One day I lost the ability to transact. A few months later I got it back. Had it not been for good friends who could cover my expenses, I could have easily ended up homeless. And the most shocking part of it all, was that I was merely collateral damage -- I had done nothing to piss off any of the powers to be. It made me quickly appreciate that a persons ability to transact while not quite a human right, isn't too far from it either. There is no way the government (or financial world) should hold the power to wreck someone with no accountability. Bitcoin as I see it, is a way to shift the balance of power somewhere closer to where it belongs. I don't hold bitcoin because I think it'll go up in value, I hold it because I don't want someone to tell me I can't pay rent because ... well they can't tell me why, because "sorry, I don't have access to that information"

pishpash 5y ago
Wouldn't that only work if you had places (like your landlord) taking Bitcoin off the blockchain directly for payment? Otherwise, transacting still requires the cooperation of intermediaries subject to sanctions. Maybe you can launder through a friend, but... it doesn't seem any easier.
- MelonTree 5y ago
  It's massively easier. If at the time I had my money in bitcoin, I would just need to find willing trader (someone who would trade my bitcoin for making my rent payment). But because I didn't, and my bank account was frozen, I had to find someone to pay my rent _on credit_. I was lucky to have someone to turn to, I suspect not everyone is fortunate to have friends who are willing and able to help and trust someone with a frozen bank account. And what also is scary, if I had been a real target and not bycatch, I bet anyone who helped me would've also faced the same asset freeze for helping me.
- reidjs 5y ago
  With localbitcoin and similar exchanges you can convert the btc to usd peer to peer with strangers.
  - fnord77 5y ago
    I tried out localbitcoin a bit before the pandemic. Absolute shit show. Nobody wanted to actually trade. Seemed like most participants were phishing for personal information, probably for identity theft.
- feanaro 5y ago
  Curious on why you'd use the word "launder" here. Exchanging currency privately with someone is not laundering.
justusw 5y ago
That sounds absolutely terrible. Were you ever able to take legal recourse?
- MelonTree 5y ago
  No, not at all. During my asset freeze, I considered trying to take action against my bank to force something to actually happen and facts to come to light. But I also had access to no money, and and my time was better spent working some cash jobs so I didn't have to lean so much on my friends. And then once my assets were unfrozen, I don't think I really have much grounds for recourse..
  - sillysaurusx 5y ago
    I’m sorry but what? Was this in the US? Because the intro was “oppressive regime,” and then you gave an example of an oppressive regime, and now I’m realizing you might very well be in the US. I’m just shocked; never considered this could happen. Was this related to your employer, and… Well, I should just ask rather than guess :) thank you for sharing, and I’m really sorry that happened. One of the best decisions I’ve made recently is to set up a company for myself. More specifically, I set up a non profit “for the world” (mostly as an intellectual exercise of “how hard would it be to mimic what openai originally set out to do? Turns out, it’s not hard!) which then put me in a position where I knew exactly how to set up an LLC for myself for consulting, and how to set up a bank account (use https://www.mercury.com https://www.mercury.com — don’t use anything else). The takeaway is that, if you’re in the US, you can have protection from exactly this sort of thing, for roughly zero cost — in Missouri the filing fee for an LLC was a whopping $50. That’s how much it cost me to set everything up, start to finish. I now have a business banking account, quickbooks takes care of the taxes (admittedly $24/mo isn’t “totally free” but it’s also “pretty cheap” relatively speaking) — which means that yes, someone could freeze my LLC (hello IRS) or freeze my personal account (hello US Bank, you suck) but it’s highly unlikely both will ever be frozen simultaneously, unless both the business and my personal accounts are under scrutiny simultaneously. The cure for that is very simple, as long as you’re rigorous: income comes in to your Mercury account; it flows out into your personal account, by paying yourself a salary. Never use the Mercury account for anything else. Congratulations, your LLC is almost impervious from problems. (My famous last words; the fact is, I have no idea what I’m talking about, and this is what I’m expecting to be true as t approaches infinity). So yes. Bitcoin: good solution. LLC: also good solution. Wish I’d taken advantage of it sooner. Unsure about outside of the US though, sadly. Though I’ve often toyed with the idea of making a company specializing in setting up one of those offshore bank tax havens, and offering a product like Stripe whose sole purpose is to automate that. :) Then everybody gets the loophole, rather than a rich few. Anyway, thanks again for sharing that very unexpected story; I hope it never happens to you again!
lrvick 5y ago
I personally know others that have experienced this I have had to help out. Another who simply lost all their identity documentation in a fire and was locked out of their accounts. Similar stories with many homeless people I used to worn with. It made me realize how fragile our access to bank accounts and identity actually are. I have as such setup a portion of my wealth in crypto-assets with a dead mans switch and recovery methods covering fire, amnesia, identity loss, or death, while ensuring the majority can't be seized by a government or rubber hose attack without the consent of myself and a quorum of people I trust around the world confident I am not under duress. As long as I have the freedom to communicate and some time I can recover. The market value of crypto-assets may not be predictable, but I prefer to be able to count on never losing access to it, and having theft protections no bank can offer.
arcticbull 5y ago
> I don't hold bitcoin because I think it'll go up in value, I hold it because I don't want someone to tell me I can't pay rent because ... well they can't tell me why, because "sorry, I don't have access to that information" Well you certainly can't do that with Bitcoin unless your landlord has a similarly anarchocapitalist worldview. You'd have to cash it out at an exchange and pay the individual in question. This choke point would leave you similarly locked out. This applies to only a fringe minority of the participants in the Ponzi. More sympathetically, even if this was a real problem that doesn't mean a Ponzi scheme is the way out. It's like saying you got burned in 2001 so decided to invest with Madoff knowing full well he was a Ponzi, but at least he wasn't a tech company.
- reaperducer 5y ago
  You'd have to cash it out at an exchange and pay the individual in question. This choke point would leave you similarly locked out. Would it? The parent commenter was in the United States, and even in cities of about 1 million people, I've seen Bitcoin ATMs at chain supermarkets. Some were even integrated into the ubiquitous CoinStar machines at the front of the store.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure all those Bitcoin ATMs are deposit-only. No withdrawals. There may be some two-way, but I suspect they're exceedingly rare.
- feanaro 5y ago
  > This choke point would leave you similarly locked out. Would it? People are willing to exchange USD for BTC. You can't control everything.
fnord77 5y ago
> a persons ability to transact while not quite a human right, isn't too far from it either. it should absolutely be a human right in this age.
ulrikrasmussen 5y ago
To begin with, let me say I'm very sorry this happened to you, and I think it sounds like an example of a really broken system. This should never happen to someone randomly, and I think you should have been compensated a lot for the troubles and stress it must have caused you. However, I think we should be careful with drawing the conclusion that technology for circumventing our institutions' ability to regulate altogether is the natural solution, when perhaps fixing the institutions would lead to an overall better outcome. If we all moved to Bitcoin, then we would no longer have central democratic control over who is allowed to transact or not, and I don't think that leads to a better society.
- plokiju 5y ago
  Calling that control “democratic” is a bit of a stretch. Plus, anonymous physical cash transactions have been the status quo forever
  - ulrikrasmussen 5y ago
    The institutions ought to be under democratic control in the sense that they are regulated by elected representatives. If they are not, then that is a big problem which should be fixed rather than circumventing the institutions altogether. Physical cash is de facto restricted in many places in the form of upper bounds on the amounts that one can withdraw and deposit.
  - kasey_junk 5y ago
    No they aren’t. There are laws requiring documentation of cash transactions over a threshold.
- CheezeIt 5y ago
  Nope, we don’t want central democratic control over who can transact. We want no control.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    An open exchange is progressive. A verified list of people who can transact is a closed stockmarket. Democratic imples a direct vote which is very far from true.

pishpash 5y ago

Wouldn't that only work if you had places (like your landlord) taking Bitcoin off the blockchain directly for payment? Otherwise, transacting still requires the cooperation of intermediaries subject to sanctions. Maybe you can launder through a friend, but... it doesn't seem any easier.

MelonTree 5y ago
It's massively easier. If at the time I had my money in bitcoin, I would just need to find willing trader (someone who would trade my bitcoin for making my rent payment). But because I didn't, and my bank account was frozen, I had to find someone to pay my rent _on credit_. I was lucky to have someone to turn to, I suspect not everyone is fortunate to have friends who are willing and able to help and trust someone with a frozen bank account. And what also is scary, if I had been a real target and not bycatch, I bet anyone who helped me would've also faced the same asset freeze for helping me.
reidjs 5y ago
With localbitcoin and similar exchanges you can convert the btc to usd peer to peer with strangers.
- fnord77 5y ago
  I tried out localbitcoin a bit before the pandemic. Absolute shit show. Nobody wanted to actually trade. Seemed like most participants were phishing for personal information, probably for identity theft.
feanaro 5y ago
Curious on why you'd use the word "launder" here. Exchanging currency privately with someone is not laundering.

justusw 5y ago

That sounds absolutely terrible. Were you ever able to take legal recourse?

MelonTree 5y ago
No, not at all. During my asset freeze, I considered trying to take action against my bank to force something to actually happen and facts to come to light. But I also had access to no money, and and my time was better spent working some cash jobs so I didn't have to lean so much on my friends. And then once my assets were unfrozen, I don't think I really have much grounds for recourse..
- sillysaurusx 5y ago
  I’m sorry but what? Was this in the US? Because the intro was “oppressive regime,” and then you gave an example of an oppressive regime, and now I’m realizing you might very well be in the US. I’m just shocked; never considered this could happen. Was this related to your employer, and… Well, I should just ask rather than guess :) thank you for sharing, and I’m really sorry that happened. One of the best decisions I’ve made recently is to set up a company for myself. More specifically, I set up a non profit “for the world” (mostly as an intellectual exercise of “how hard would it be to mimic what openai originally set out to do? Turns out, it’s not hard!) which then put me in a position where I knew exactly how to set up an LLC for myself for consulting, and how to set up a bank account (use https://www.mercury.com https://www.mercury.com — don’t use anything else). The takeaway is that, if you’re in the US, you can have protection from exactly this sort of thing, for roughly zero cost — in Missouri the filing fee for an LLC was a whopping $50. That’s how much it cost me to set everything up, start to finish. I now have a business banking account, quickbooks takes care of the taxes (admittedly $24/mo isn’t “totally free” but it’s also “pretty cheap” relatively speaking) — which means that yes, someone could freeze my LLC (hello IRS) or freeze my personal account (hello US Bank, you suck) but it’s highly unlikely both will ever be frozen simultaneously, unless both the business and my personal accounts are under scrutiny simultaneously. The cure for that is very simple, as long as you’re rigorous: income comes in to your Mercury account; it flows out into your personal account, by paying yourself a salary. Never use the Mercury account for anything else. Congratulations, your LLC is almost impervious from problems. (My famous last words; the fact is, I have no idea what I’m talking about, and this is what I’m expecting to be true as t approaches infinity). So yes. Bitcoin: good solution. LLC: also good solution. Wish I’d taken advantage of it sooner. Unsure about outside of the US though, sadly. Though I’ve often toyed with the idea of making a company specializing in setting up one of those offshore bank tax havens, and offering a product like Stripe whose sole purpose is to automate that. :) Then everybody gets the loophole, rather than a rich few. Anyway, thanks again for sharing that very unexpected story; I hope it never happens to you again!

lrvick 5y ago

I personally know others that have experienced this I have had to help out. Another who simply lost all their identity documentation in a fire and was locked out of their accounts. Similar stories with many homeless people I used to worn with. It made me realize how fragile our access to bank accounts and identity actually are. I have as such setup a portion of my wealth in crypto-assets with a dead mans switch and recovery methods covering fire, amnesia, identity loss, or death, while ensuring the majority can't be seized by a government or rubber hose attack without the consent of myself and a quorum of people I trust around the world confident I am not under duress. As long as I have the freedom to communicate and some time I can recover. The market value of crypto-assets may not be predictable, but I prefer to be able to count on never losing access to it, and having theft protections no bank can offer.

arcticbull 5y ago

> I don't hold bitcoin because I think it'll go up in value, I hold it because I don't want someone to tell me I can't pay rent because ... well they can't tell me why, because "sorry, I don't have access to that information" Well you certainly can't do that with Bitcoin unless your landlord has a similarly anarchocapitalist worldview. You'd have to cash it out at an exchange and pay the individual in question. This choke point would leave you similarly locked out. This applies to only a fringe minority of the participants in the Ponzi. More sympathetically, even if this was a real problem that doesn't mean a Ponzi scheme is the way out. It's like saying you got burned in 2001 so decided to invest with Madoff knowing full well he was a Ponzi, but at least he wasn't a tech company.

reaperducer 5y ago
You'd have to cash it out at an exchange and pay the individual in question. This choke point would leave you similarly locked out. Would it? The parent commenter was in the United States, and even in cities of about 1 million people, I've seen Bitcoin ATMs at chain supermarkets. Some were even integrated into the ubiquitous CoinStar machines at the front of the store.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure all those Bitcoin ATMs are deposit-only. No withdrawals. There may be some two-way, but I suspect they're exceedingly rare.
feanaro 5y ago
> This choke point would leave you similarly locked out. Would it? People are willing to exchange USD for BTC. You can't control everything.

fnord77 5y ago

> a persons ability to transact while not quite a human right, isn't too far from it either. it should absolutely be a human right in this age.

ulrikrasmussen 5y ago

To begin with, let me say I'm very sorry this happened to you, and I think it sounds like an example of a really broken system. This should never happen to someone randomly, and I think you should have been compensated a lot for the troubles and stress it must have caused you. However, I think we should be careful with drawing the conclusion that technology for circumventing our institutions' ability to regulate altogether is the natural solution, when perhaps fixing the institutions would lead to an overall better outcome. If we all moved to Bitcoin, then we would no longer have central democratic control over who is allowed to transact or not, and I don't think that leads to a better society.

plokiju 5y ago
Calling that control “democratic” is a bit of a stretch. Plus, anonymous physical cash transactions have been the status quo forever
- ulrikrasmussen 5y ago
  The institutions ought to be under democratic control in the sense that they are regulated by elected representatives. If they are not, then that is a big problem which should be fixed rather than circumventing the institutions altogether. Physical cash is de facto restricted in many places in the form of upper bounds on the amounts that one can withdraw and deposit.
- kasey_junk 5y ago
  No they aren’t. There are laws requiring documentation of cash transactions over a threshold.
CheezeIt 5y ago
Nope, we don’t want central democratic control over who can transact. We want no control.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  An open exchange is progressive. A verified list of people who can transact is a closed stockmarket. Democratic imples a direct vote which is very far from true.