12 ms·

I must ask those who are still sticking with Firefox over Chromium-based browsers, especially those who do so soley for the purpose of staying off a Google web

I must ask those who are still sticking with Firefox over Chromium-based browsers, especially those who do so soley for the purpose of staying off a Google web monopoly, to what end? When and how do you think Mozilla will ever do anything to help the web? They integrate all of Google's non-standards just as quickly as Google does, take Google money, and then do adamantly anti-user stunts like this and the Pocket and the incessant VPN shilling. And it's significantly harder to make a good version of Firefox, you have to mess with userscripts or profiles or LibreWolf or cross your fingers and hope some nebulous omnipotent distro maintainers just take care of it. With chromium there are several builds with the spy and suck stripped out readily available because most of it is blobs or API keys, very easy to just exclude at build time. See https://chromium.woolyss.com https://chromium.woolyss.com. I make this comment partially because this is one of the more egregious things Mozilla has done recently but also because I've recently switched to Chromium myself and the whole experience is much faster and smoother so I recommend everyone do it. Happy to be debunked.

fletchowns 5y ago
> When and how do you think Mozilla will ever do anything to help the web? Firefox helps the web. MDN helps the web. Mozilla SSL Configuration Generator helps the web. Mozilla has helped the web and continues to do so in so many ways. I think they'd be on the short list of who has helped the web the most.
- dralley 5y ago
  LetsEncrypt was bootstrapped by Mozilla. Mozilla research contributed large amounts of research and development of Vorbis, Opus and AV1. Dav1d, Wasmtime, Wgpu, Asm.js which later turned into WebAssembly. "rr", the reverse debugger. Rust, obviously. The list continues.
- mftb 5y ago
  Exactly. We're just seeing Rust spun out of the Servo effort, does anyone really doubt that Rust can and will be used to write code that will benefit the web? Most importantly Mozilla helps the web just by keeping FF going. Conversely Mozilla if you see this, this change is dispiriting. Including ads in Windows is literally the MS move that caused me to leave Windows for Linux a few years back. It's not the ads themselves or how they are presented that is the issue. It's the inevitable tracking that will follow on to increase the ads value. I'm not going to leave FF immediately over this change, but I am going to investigate what tracking comes with it and ultimately I'm determined to not let my computer and it's software be turned into a device for surveilling me rather than a tool for my use.
chovybizzass 5y ago
i hate google
- 93po 5y ago
  Similarly, I simply do not trust them to not do the absolute most malicious and evil things possible. If they one day start secretly keylogging people and then get hacked revealing keylogs for millions of people, I frankly wouldn't be surprised at this point.
dkulchenko 5y ago
Personally, I stick to Firefox because of multi-account containers, which Chrome doesn’t have (no, profiles don’t count). It’s a really sticky feature.
xzcvczx 5y ago
one of the main reasons i do is for the MUCH better adblockers you get in firefox, the chrome/ium ones just aren't nearly as good
kbrackbill 5y ago
That's a fair question, in practical terms I don't think it's doing much. I'm worried we'll end up in a state where only one browser engine is able to access the web, so google will have absolute control over web standards like microsoft did in the IE6/7 days. That's kind of already the case and seems inevitable, but using firefox feels like a small thing I can do to register my dislike for a browser monoculture. Also what others said about the better addons (adblockers and tree style tabs). Firefox may be more annoying to get into a good state but at least it's still possible.
rossy 5y ago
> They integrate all of Google's non-standards just as quickly as Google does They don't. They are still publicly opposed to the most egregious Google "standards." See https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/ https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/ One particular concern that always comes to mind for me, because I use Web Components at work, is that we would have gotten a much worse version of Web Components if not for Mozilla's opposition. That sort of opposition isn't possible from the vendor of a Chromium-fork.
invalidname 5y ago
For me it's just a WAY better browser. It's faster in the newer versions and scales better (keeps FAR more tabs than Chrome). I have chrome running too for docs and Google properties but FF is my main browser. My favorite is the address bar which is on a completely different level to chrome. I just type a vague memory and it finds what I'm looking for in my history. Amazing. As others said ad blocking is better, facebook container etc. Also removing anything related to google is a big plus especially after stuff like this: https://dev.to/codenameone/google-play-kafkaesque-experience-mp3 https://dev.to/codenameone/google-play-kafkaesque-experience... Notice that in code we use CEF since there's no real alternative. I'm purely talking about the experience as a user.
Macha 5y ago
Could I switch to _a_ Chromium based browser in the future? Sure. But if I look at the candidates? Chrome - Privacy issues with Google, e.g. linking browser sign ins to web page sign ins, FLOC, etc., no ublock on mobile, manifest v3 limits to adblocking Vivaldi - Closed Source Brave - I disapprove of their past actions regarding cryptocurrency, misleading users by holding donations in escrow, or the privacy implications of inserting their own referral codes Opera - Their new owners have a poor track record. Edge - Microsoft's actions with Windows 10 and pushing for sign ins and the Windows Store don't leave me trusting them much either. ungoogled-chromium - Lacks features like browser sync, no android equivalent, etc., are they going to fork it to the extent of keeping the older adblocking APIs or stick close to upstream? So like, if Vivaldi went open source, I'd be open to trying it, but until then, Firefox it is
- unraveller 5y ago
  The Vivaldi UI is only source-obfuscated to the extent you can't easily unpack a webpack of a react UI. There are tools to mod it considerably at every level if that is what you are after.
  - Macha 5y ago
    "Run some minified JS through a deobfuscator" is not something that cuts it as a replacement for open source for me. In particular it would mean other users can't legally distribute a version with potential future antifeatures removed
- wayneftw 5y ago
  This is a good list of concerns to be aware of, but I think they need deeper inspection and should be balanced by comparison with the list of concerns about Firefox and Mozilla from bejelentkezni who you replied to. I think what it really comes down to is that every single one of them, including Firefox, has it's issues and you just have to pick your poison. For Chrome, you can disable linking browser sign ins to web page sign ins and you can disable FLOC. For mobile - If you don't trust Google, you should probably be on an iPhone IMO. There I use Adguard with Safari and that works just as well as uBlock Origin and better than Firefox on iOS. I use Chrome all day on desktop systems, but I don't sign in at all and because of that, I just don't do syncing. If I really wanted to do basic bookmark syncing though, I could do that with an extension like xBrowserSync, EverSync, etc. (or even my own). Of course those probably wouldn't sync to iPhone/Safari with some hackey procedure. I don't know if Manifest v3 will stop uBlock Origin because the maintainers have been steadily working on ways to implement the extension with it. I don't entirely distrust Brave since they've been quick to apologize, explain and/or revert their mistaken behavior. I think they deserve some consideration for the level of innovation they're trying to achieve. For now, Brave is my backup plan for desktop at least, if Manifest v3 breaks everything completely. Good for me that I pack lightly and I can move to another browser easily or use a mix of them if I wish to.
sebow 5y ago
[dead]
mackal 5y ago
Google removed a feature I was using daily and replaced it with a different method that was 100% incompatible with my use case. Firefox works how I want with this, so I use Firefox.
- bitneuker 5y ago
  What's the deal with Google removing features, without warning, from their products that a part of their userbase still uses? They own the largest analytics platform on the planet, why go against the experience most users are used to?
  - prirai 5y ago
    They are a business company.
frogcoder 5y ago
All features and principles aside, it's a different code base. A mono culture is dangerous for the system, remember heartbleed?
sellyme 5y ago
Almost all of my favourite browser extensions come to Chrome years later (or not at all), Firefox handles extremely high tab counts very well, it provides more access to "here be dragons" configuration options, session restoration is much more reliable. Probably loads more reasons I can't think of off the top of my head. Firefox is just by far a better user experience for me.
JohnFen 5y ago
> When and how do you think Mozilla will ever do anything to help the web? Personally, it's not that Mozilla is so great, it's that they're the lesser of the available evils.
achooie 5y ago
One of the main reasons is tree style tabbing[0]. I don't know how people live with an endless row of little peaks that are barely clickable... [0] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-tab/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-ta...
_-david-_ 5y ago
The biggest thing for me is engine diversity. There is Gecko (Firefox), Blink (Chrome, Edge, Brave, etc) and WebKit (Safari). Since Safari is only available on Apple products it only leaves an engine controlled by Google and Firefox. I don't like the idea of Google basically controlling the path of every browser so I use Firefox. I know there are some alternatives like KHTML, but almost nobody uses them.
nunez 5y ago
Tell me of a Chromium-based browser that has something like Firefox Multi-Account Containers and is as kind on my Mac's battery as Firefox and I'm out
m9731526 5y ago
I've been using Firefox for like over 10 years I guess. It's just the best browser for me, I can hack the browser UI, freely arrange the buttons and bars, and I keep 10s of plugins installed to comfortably browse, learn and work.
davidgerard 5y ago
The ad blocking still works properly, instead of having been deliberately crippled as in Blink.
worble 5y ago
I'll consider chrome when they have container tabs and userChrome.css
ls15 5y ago
Multi-account containers
reportgunner 5y ago
Too long didnt read. Install firefox, enable permanent private mode, turn off all the suggestions, set new tab to blank page, set duckduckgo as default search, install ublock origin and https everywhere. Done and it stays like that.
krylon 5y ago
I've been a Firefox user since the days when it was still called Firebird. So far, none of the changes Mozilla made to Firefox has annoyed me enough to look for alternatives. This time might be different, though.
soundnote 5y ago
I don't think Pocket is bad. I think browsers do need an external footprint on the web, or integrated features that make it more than just a window to run sites on. Google Docs, Office 365, Pocket, Brave Rewards/Search/Talk/News, Vivaldi's integrated notes app, mail/rss features. It's just the reality nowadays. This essay puts forth good arguments, I think: http://dpldocs.info/this-week-in-d/Blog.Posted_2021_09_06.html#adam%27s-rant http://dpldocs.info/this-week-in-d/Blog.Posted_2021_09_06.ht... The VPN service is a bit iffy as said in the essay, in that it derives its value from other actors being shitty rather than providing value by itself, but Pocket is genuinely the sort of stuff a browser maker should have. It makes the web browsing experience better and helps combat link rot by giving you hard copies of things you come across. Of course, most vocal Firefox users don't want it, they seem to want a utopian FOSS browser ran purely on donations, but the amounts of money probably just aren't there.

fletchowns 5y ago

> When and how do you think Mozilla will ever do anything to help the web? Firefox helps the web. MDN helps the web. Mozilla SSL Configuration Generator helps the web. Mozilla has helped the web and continues to do so in so many ways. I think they'd be on the short list of who has helped the web the most.

dralley 5y ago
LetsEncrypt was bootstrapped by Mozilla. Mozilla research contributed large amounts of research and development of Vorbis, Opus and AV1. Dav1d, Wasmtime, Wgpu, Asm.js which later turned into WebAssembly. "rr", the reverse debugger. Rust, obviously. The list continues.
mftb 5y ago
Exactly. We're just seeing Rust spun out of the Servo effort, does anyone really doubt that Rust can and will be used to write code that will benefit the web? Most importantly Mozilla helps the web just by keeping FF going. Conversely Mozilla if you see this, this change is dispiriting. Including ads in Windows is literally the MS move that caused me to leave Windows for Linux a few years back. It's not the ads themselves or how they are presented that is the issue. It's the inevitable tracking that will follow on to increase the ads value. I'm not going to leave FF immediately over this change, but I am going to investigate what tracking comes with it and ultimately I'm determined to not let my computer and it's software be turned into a device for surveilling me rather than a tool for my use.

chovybizzass 5y ago

i hate google

93po 5y ago
Similarly, I simply do not trust them to not do the absolute most malicious and evil things possible. If they one day start secretly keylogging people and then get hacked revealing keylogs for millions of people, I frankly wouldn't be surprised at this point.

dkulchenko 5y ago

Personally, I stick to Firefox because of multi-account containers, which Chrome doesn’t have (no, profiles don’t count). It’s a really sticky feature.

xzcvczx 5y ago

one of the main reasons i do is for the MUCH better adblockers you get in firefox, the chrome/ium ones just aren't nearly as good

kbrackbill 5y ago

That's a fair question, in practical terms I don't think it's doing much. I'm worried we'll end up in a state where only one browser engine is able to access the web, so google will have absolute control over web standards like microsoft did in the IE6/7 days. That's kind of already the case and seems inevitable, but using firefox feels like a small thing I can do to register my dislike for a browser monoculture. Also what others said about the better addons (adblockers and tree style tabs). Firefox may be more annoying to get into a good state but at least it's still possible.

rossy 5y ago

> They integrate all of Google's non-standards just as quickly as Google does They don't. They are still publicly opposed to the most egregious Google "standards." See https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/ https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/ One particular concern that always comes to mind for me, because I use Web Components at work, is that we would have gotten a much worse version of Web Components if not for Mozilla's opposition. That sort of opposition isn't possible from the vendor of a Chromium-fork.

invalidname 5y ago

For me it's just a WAY better browser. It's faster in the newer versions and scales better (keeps FAR more tabs than Chrome). I have chrome running too for docs and Google properties but FF is my main browser. My favorite is the address bar which is on a completely different level to chrome. I just type a vague memory and it finds what I'm looking for in my history. Amazing. As others said ad blocking is better, facebook container etc. Also removing anything related to google is a big plus especially after stuff like this: https://dev.to/codenameone/google-play-kafkaesque-experience-mp3 https://dev.to/codenameone/google-play-kafkaesque-experience... Notice that in code we use CEF since there's no real alternative. I'm purely talking about the experience as a user.

Macha 5y ago

Could I switch to _a_ Chromium based browser in the future? Sure. But if I look at the candidates? Chrome - Privacy issues with Google, e.g. linking browser sign ins to web page sign ins, FLOC, etc., no ublock on mobile, manifest v3 limits to adblocking Vivaldi - Closed Source Brave - I disapprove of their past actions regarding cryptocurrency, misleading users by holding donations in escrow, or the privacy implications of inserting their own referral codes Opera - Their new owners have a poor track record. Edge - Microsoft's actions with Windows 10 and pushing for sign ins and the Windows Store don't leave me trusting them much either. ungoogled-chromium - Lacks features like browser sync, no android equivalent, etc., are they going to fork it to the extent of keeping the older adblocking APIs or stick close to upstream? So like, if Vivaldi went open source, I'd be open to trying it, but until then, Firefox it is

unraveller 5y ago
The Vivaldi UI is only source-obfuscated to the extent you can't easily unpack a webpack of a react UI. There are tools to mod it considerably at every level if that is what you are after.
- Macha 5y ago
  "Run some minified JS through a deobfuscator" is not something that cuts it as a replacement for open source for me. In particular it would mean other users can't legally distribute a version with potential future antifeatures removed
wayneftw 5y ago
This is a good list of concerns to be aware of, but I think they need deeper inspection and should be balanced by comparison with the list of concerns about Firefox and Mozilla from bejelentkezni who you replied to. I think what it really comes down to is that every single one of them, including Firefox, has it's issues and you just have to pick your poison. For Chrome, you can disable linking browser sign ins to web page sign ins and you can disable FLOC. For mobile - If you don't trust Google, you should probably be on an iPhone IMO. There I use Adguard with Safari and that works just as well as uBlock Origin and better than Firefox on iOS. I use Chrome all day on desktop systems, but I don't sign in at all and because of that, I just don't do syncing. If I really wanted to do basic bookmark syncing though, I could do that with an extension like xBrowserSync, EverSync, etc. (or even my own). Of course those probably wouldn't sync to iPhone/Safari with some hackey procedure. I don't know if Manifest v3 will stop uBlock Origin because the maintainers have been steadily working on ways to implement the extension with it. I don't entirely distrust Brave since they've been quick to apologize, explain and/or revert their mistaken behavior. I think they deserve some consideration for the level of innovation they're trying to achieve. For now, Brave is my backup plan for desktop at least, if Manifest v3 breaks everything completely. Good for me that I pack lightly and I can move to another browser easily or use a mix of them if I wish to.

sebow 5y ago

[dead]

mackal 5y ago

Google removed a feature I was using daily and replaced it with a different method that was 100% incompatible with my use case. Firefox works how I want with this, so I use Firefox.

bitneuker 5y ago
What's the deal with Google removing features, without warning, from their products that a part of their userbase still uses? They own the largest analytics platform on the planet, why go against the experience most users are used to?
- prirai 5y ago
  They are a business company.

frogcoder 5y ago

All features and principles aside, it's a different code base. A mono culture is dangerous for the system, remember heartbleed?

sellyme 5y ago

Almost all of my favourite browser extensions come to Chrome years later (or not at all), Firefox handles extremely high tab counts very well, it provides more access to "here be dragons" configuration options, session restoration is much more reliable. Probably loads more reasons I can't think of off the top of my head. Firefox is just by far a better user experience for me.

JohnFen 5y ago

> When and how do you think Mozilla will ever do anything to help the web? Personally, it's not that Mozilla is so great, it's that they're the lesser of the available evils.

achooie 5y ago

One of the main reasons is tree style tabbing[0]. I don't know how people live with an endless row of little peaks that are barely clickable... [0] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-tab/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-ta...

_-david-_ 5y ago

The biggest thing for me is engine diversity. There is Gecko (Firefox), Blink (Chrome, Edge, Brave, etc) and WebKit (Safari). Since Safari is only available on Apple products it only leaves an engine controlled by Google and Firefox. I don't like the idea of Google basically controlling the path of every browser so I use Firefox. I know there are some alternatives like KHTML, but almost nobody uses them.

nunez 5y ago

Tell me of a Chromium-based browser that has something like Firefox Multi-Account Containers and is as kind on my Mac's battery as Firefox and I'm out

m9731526 5y ago

I've been using Firefox for like over 10 years I guess. It's just the best browser for me, I can hack the browser UI, freely arrange the buttons and bars, and I keep 10s of plugins installed to comfortably browse, learn and work.

davidgerard 5y ago

The ad blocking still works properly, instead of having been deliberately crippled as in Blink.

worble 5y ago

I'll consider chrome when they have container tabs and userChrome.css

ls15 5y ago

Multi-account containers

reportgunner 5y ago

Too long didnt read. Install firefox, enable permanent private mode, turn off all the suggestions, set new tab to blank page, set duckduckgo as default search, install ublock origin and https everywhere. Done and it stays like that.

krylon 5y ago

I've been a Firefox user since the days when it was still called Firebird. So far, none of the changes Mozilla made to Firefox has annoyed me enough to look for alternatives. This time might be different, though.

soundnote 5y ago

I don't think Pocket is bad. I think browsers do need an external footprint on the web, or integrated features that make it more than just a window to run sites on. Google Docs, Office 365, Pocket, Brave Rewards/Search/Talk/News, Vivaldi's integrated notes app, mail/rss features. It's just the reality nowadays. This essay puts forth good arguments, I think: http://dpldocs.info/this-week-in-d/Blog.Posted_2021_09_06.html#adam%27s-rant http://dpldocs.info/this-week-in-d/Blog.Posted_2021_09_06.ht... The VPN service is a bit iffy as said in the essay, in that it derives its value from other actors being shitty rather than providing value by itself, but Pocket is genuinely the sort of stuff a browser maker should have. It makes the web browsing experience better and helps combat link rot by giving you hard copies of things you come across. Of course, most vocal Firefox users don't want it, they seem to want a utopian FOSS browser ran purely on donations, but the amounts of money probably just aren't there.