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I did not get that at all. To me it sounds like she is coming clean with what she sees as the issues surrounding the project, including poor communication. I re

I did not get that at all. To me it sounds like she is coming clean with what she sees as the issues surrounding the project, including poor communication. I read that as, 'another problem we've seen is that people are unclear what it means to become a member of our organisation so we are working towards improving that.' I initially read her apology and thought it was likely a response to an overblown situation that occurs because it's on the Internet and it's much easier to assume the worst of people's intentions. I can imagine merging a PR I made that I imagined to be obvious and fine. I probably would have just said, 'oh yeah, sorry. I'll try not to do it again. My bad.' But then again, that's probably why I'm not the leader of the .Net foundation :-)

haswell 5y ago
> I read that as, 'another problem we've seen is that people are unclear what it means to become a member of our organisation so we are working towards improving that.' The implication though is that becoming a member of the organization allows for actions like the one she took. I do think owning up to "maybe these agreements aren't clear enough" is good, but that then seems inextricably linked to "I was allowed to do this". The reader then needs to figure out "is she apologizing because of what she did, or is she apologizing for not being clear that she was allowed to do what she did?" If you're one of the maintainers, the latter falls flat, regardless of intent/genuineness. I hope your more charitable take is closer to reality.
- jonathankoren 5y ago
  I don't know why there would be confusion about what she's apologizing for. She explicitly stated what the mistake was. > I shouldn't have merged this PR without explicit sign-off from the other maintainers, because it's disrespectful and rude not to follow the project’s process.
  - haswell 5y ago
    But when that is followed by an explanation outlining why they’re allowed to do what they did, and going forward they’ll try to make that more clear, how is one supposed to interpret the original apology and its intent? The apology and the legal overview do not coexist well.
    - jonathankoren 5y ago
      Aren’t people conflating two different things? Merging a PR when repeatedly asked not to until it got approved, and Microsoft moving repos? Merging the PR is a personal failure for which she explicitly apologized for. Microsoft moving repos is something that the organization has always said was possible. There’s not much to apologize there for. That has always been explicitly stated the rules.
katbyte 5y ago
Wasn’t just opening a pr and merging it, it was opening a pr, having a maintainer ask her to clarify/follow process, close pr, her reopen it, TWICE and then finally just merge it dismissing the maintainer https://github.com/reactiveui/splat/pull/778 https://github.com/reactiveui/splat/pull/778
- sundvor 5y ago
  Thanks! Coming in to this cold: Starting with reading the apology and the first few comments on that page, then back here down to yours. This paints a totally different picture to the impressions I got from the preceding steps; I can fully understand the upset.
  - sillysaurusx 5y ago
    (It's weird.. I just came from that link, and was feeling exactly the same way, and then read your comment. Yes. I try not to chime in with "me too," but that PR really puts into perspective that the merge was problematic in addition to them transferring entire GitHub repositories without warning, which is generating an equal amount of outrage. I see now why it's equal.)
temp8964 5y ago
> 'oh yeah, sorry. I'll try not to do it again. My bad.' This definitely should be sufficient. But hey, we are not living in that time anymore. Public condemnation is the new normal. And a response with public self-condemnation is expected from the mob. "I'm sorry" and "I apologize" is no longer sufficient. You need to go deeper and expose the evil in your soul, and condemn your self and your conspirators, and devote you will be a new person. You might get a chance.
- donw 5y ago
  The promise is "apologize and this will all go away". That's a lie. Never does. Depending on where you work, you may or may not be totally screwed, but apologizing when you have done nothing wrong changes bupkis. Why give the bullies what they want? Stand your ground: - You can cordially invite the mob to go fuck itself. Or, for a less confrontational approach: - You can ignore the mob and proceed as normal for a few months until they find somebody else to hate. It's going to be a ride either way, but these bullying tactics work only because people cave. It's a trial by fire. The people that don't tend to end up more successful afterwards, and with the added benefit of knowing who their true friends really are. A couple of important points: - You need to commit. If you later on back down, you are done like a cheap steak. The bullies know they own you at that point. Yes, this means you might be fired, or kicked out of your university. Might get your house torched. You're going to lose "friends". Improvise, adapt, and overcome. - These bullies want to provoke you to violence on their terms. Don't. Especially if you're the fighting type: don't take that bait. Pretty sure Sun Tzu didn't write, "Fight precisely when the enemy wants to battle."
  - temp8964 5y ago
    People do something shitty all the time, like literally all the time. But public condemnation is the new normal. But nothing you do will prevent that from happening. Mob is just being mob. The mob mentality is spreading like a disease.
    - donw 5y ago
      You know what? You're right. Deleted that bullet point.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

haswell 5y ago

> I read that as, 'another problem we've seen is that people are unclear what it means to become a member of our organisation so we are working towards improving that.' The implication though is that becoming a member of the organization allows for actions like the one she took. I do think owning up to "maybe these agreements aren't clear enough" is good, but that then seems inextricably linked to "I was allowed to do this". The reader then needs to figure out "is she apologizing because of what she did, or is she apologizing for not being clear that she was allowed to do what she did?" If you're one of the maintainers, the latter falls flat, regardless of intent/genuineness. I hope your more charitable take is closer to reality.

jonathankoren 5y ago
I don't know why there would be confusion about what she's apologizing for. She explicitly stated what the mistake was. > I shouldn't have merged this PR without explicit sign-off from the other maintainers, because it's disrespectful and rude not to follow the project’s process.
- haswell 5y ago
  But when that is followed by an explanation outlining why they’re allowed to do what they did, and going forward they’ll try to make that more clear, how is one supposed to interpret the original apology and its intent? The apology and the legal overview do not coexist well.
  - jonathankoren 5y ago
    Aren’t people conflating two different things? Merging a PR when repeatedly asked not to until it got approved, and Microsoft moving repos? Merging the PR is a personal failure for which she explicitly apologized for. Microsoft moving repos is something that the organization has always said was possible. There’s not much to apologize there for. That has always been explicitly stated the rules.

katbyte 5y ago

Wasn’t just opening a pr and merging it, it was opening a pr, having a maintainer ask her to clarify/follow process, close pr, her reopen it, TWICE and then finally just merge it dismissing the maintainer https://github.com/reactiveui/splat/pull/778 https://github.com/reactiveui/splat/pull/778

sundvor 5y ago
Thanks! Coming in to this cold: Starting with reading the apology and the first few comments on that page, then back here down to yours. This paints a totally different picture to the impressions I got from the preceding steps; I can fully understand the upset.
- sillysaurusx 5y ago
  (It's weird.. I just came from that link, and was feeling exactly the same way, and then read your comment. Yes. I try not to chime in with "me too," but that PR really puts into perspective that the merge was problematic in addition to them transferring entire GitHub repositories without warning, which is generating an equal amount of outrage. I see now why it's equal.)

temp8964 5y ago

> 'oh yeah, sorry. I'll try not to do it again. My bad.' This definitely should be sufficient. But hey, we are not living in that time anymore. Public condemnation is the new normal. And a response with public self-condemnation is expected from the mob. "I'm sorry" and "I apologize" is no longer sufficient. You need to go deeper and expose the evil in your soul, and condemn your self and your conspirators, and devote you will be a new person. You might get a chance.

donw 5y ago
The promise is "apologize and this will all go away". That's a lie. Never does. Depending on where you work, you may or may not be totally screwed, but apologizing when you have done nothing wrong changes bupkis. Why give the bullies what they want? Stand your ground: - You can cordially invite the mob to go fuck itself. Or, for a less confrontational approach: - You can ignore the mob and proceed as normal for a few months until they find somebody else to hate. It's going to be a ride either way, but these bullying tactics work only because people cave. It's a trial by fire. The people that don't tend to end up more successful afterwards, and with the added benefit of knowing who their true friends really are. A couple of important points: - You need to commit. If you later on back down, you are done like a cheap steak. The bullies know they own you at that point. Yes, this means you might be fired, or kicked out of your university. Might get your house torched. You're going to lose "friends". Improvise, adapt, and overcome. - These bullies want to provoke you to violence on their terms. Don't. Especially if you're the fighting type: don't take that bait. Pretty sure Sun Tzu didn't write, "Fight precisely when the enemy wants to battle."
- temp8964 5y ago
  People do something shitty all the time, like literally all the time. But public condemnation is the new normal. But nothing you do will prevent that from happening. Mob is just being mob. The mob mentality is spreading like a disease.
  - donw 5y ago
    You know what? You're right. Deleted that bullet point.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]