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U.S. Tech Salaries Grow, but Not for Everyone
- dudul 5y ago> And the gap between Caucasians and African Americans also continued to grow On the graph: White - 155k Black - 130k Asian - 156k Is it time to talk about the gap between Blacks and Asians instead?
- project2501a 5y agoIt is time to talk about unionization that would throw all these bullshit inequalities out the window.
- DaveExeter 5y agoUnionization would throw so much out the window!
- gruez 5y ago...by replacing meritocracy with seniority?
- b20000 5y agowhat meritocracy? are you saying that passing leetcode interviews means you know your job?
- jjcon 5y agoPlenty of us not in the Bay Area monoculture have never been subjected to leetcode type interviews, I know I never have.
- emidln 5y agoYou can also tell employers "no". I did it in the last round and of 6 companies that tried a leetcode-style interview, only 1 ended talks. I received offers from the other 5 despite not giving them a bullshit timed algo interview.
- b20000 5y agothat's great, I developed multiple succesful products and have 25 years of experience and told several "no" recently and they all decided to not interview me.
- mbrodersen 5y agoI am happy to hear that. Developers have a lot more power to change things than they realise. If all developers simply refused to do leet code style interviews, employees would very quickly stop doing them.
- b20000 5y agoexactly, this
- Foobar8568 5y agoIt's already the case in most companies.
- BurningFrog 5y agoThat's why it's good we can switch companies!
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y agoIf you honestly believe that companies operate as meritocracies I have a bridge to sell you. Nepotism still runs rampant, attractive people get more job offers, promotions, and pay, networking still trounces experience and credentials when it comes to finding work, and credentials themselves are largely about wealth signaling. Seniority is at least an objective measure, even if it is a terrible one. Besides which, no one says that's how a union has to work.
- the_only_law 5y ago> attractive people get more job offers Hey, I need a new webcam for interviews because this 720p can’t seem to get decent lighting really does a number ob me there.
- b20000 5y agowhy is this downvoted?
- mrkstu 5y agoBecause it would just replace one set of inequalities with a different set?
- b20000 5y agoso how would it become worse than the current situation?
- wheelinsupial 5y agoIn a really extreme example of union membership, it relies on a lottery system. The lottery tickets are only given to current members. The current members give this to family members or sell the ticket for tens of thousands of dollars. The union can post jobs internally and they have to evaluate internal candidates first. Some places I’ve worked even have it set up so that internal union members are sent to school for training before they will open it up to external hiring. Credentialing. Union can enforce specific credentials that would then keep people otherwise qualified out. I think these (which are scenarios I’ve seen) are worse than the current system where if you have the skills and can demonstrate them, then you can get a high paying job.
- b20000 5y agothe current system does not guarantee a high paying job if you have the skills and can demonstrate them. it requires that you go through timed coding tests which are unrelated to what you will be doing, and which you have to study for first, despite already having done all that in college, and despite that college possibly being ivy league, and despite having years of experience and released succesful products.
- tehjoker 5y agoThey're not bullshit, they're secondary contradictions to the primary contradiction of bourgeoisie vs proletarians. The secondary contradictions do affect real people and are a great way to rally people together by showing solidarity to each other.
- mbrodersen 5y agoUnions work well in countries like Germany. I have always wondered why unions failed so badly in the US? I assume corruption was the major problem?
- victorhooi 5y agoThis really does frustrate me - that racism is usually seen in the spectrum of the "whites vs blacks" narrative - but Asian-Americans are usually disregarded, or it's not "real" racism. Sure, they don't have the same pay disparity as blacks (although there is still inequality within the cohort itself) - however, that's largely been a result of higher educational attainment, and the work ethic of Asians - and ignores the barriers they've had to overcome to get to that level. However, there is still a level of casual racism - and even in the last year, a lot of anti-Asian assaults across America. Also, this is an anecdote, in many places I've worked at, it's very common that management and above are mostly white males, but all the Asians are non-management. I've wondered how much of that is due to some cultural issue, versus how much is due to some bias in the system.
- endisneigh 5y ago> and the work ethic of Asians - and ignores the barriers they've had to overcome to get to that level. Could you elaborate?
- bradleyjg 5y agoIf whites have higher pay it’s because of discrimination but if Asians have higher pay it’s overcoming discrimination. Is your model of the world falsifiable?
- 908B64B197 5y agoIt's interesting to see the achievement gap despite policies at top institutions that are increasingly trying to get rid of objective measurement, and instead focus on "holistic" approach. Lowell HS, here in SF, is a prime example [0], but also the lawsuits brought against Ivy League institutions [1] [2] [3] [0] https://www.sfgate.com/education/article/San-Francisco-Lowell-High-ends-merit-admissions-15939248.php https://www.sfgate.com/education/article/San-Francisco-Lowel... [1] https://spectator.org/asian-discrimination-sat-requirements/ https://spectator.org/asian-discrimination-sat-requirements/ [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/13/yale-illegally-discriminates-against-white-and-asian-students-justice-department-says.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/13/yale-illegally-discriminates... [3] https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/07/living/feat-mindy-kaling-brother-affirmative-action/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/07/living/feat-mindy-kaling-brot...
- didibus 5y ago> Is it time to talk about the gap between Blacks and Asians instead? The problem isn't so much what value you put on the groups, as the gap itself. Think of it more generically: gap<Race, Salary> Anytime you'd see a big gap, it would be cause for concern, because we value that similar work should provide similar compensation no matter your race. And if you see that the gap is caused by the distribution of the type of work, for example, raceX is more likely to do work that pays more than raceZ. Well that's also an issue, because we value equal opportunity between races, and the assumption is if opportunity was truly equal, the data should not show a big gap in the choices of work made between races, especially for highly paid professions. At least it shouldn't show that without a clear explanation as to why that might be, which we don't have today. I understand 100% where you come from with that comment, it can get annoying to feel personally blamed for inequality, where the real blame could be historical, or accidental, but I'd only say to try and be the better man, and get past that, because focusing on the "blame" both as a recipient or activist wanting to lash it out is counterproductive, keep the focus on the issue and discussions of solutions I think is the healthy path forward for everyone. And you're right, articles like this one could also try harder at that.
- mathverse 5y agoWhites not born in rich anglo countries are still perceived as privileged despite a lot of them growing up in much harder conditions than your average black person in tech.
- tentakull 5y ago[flagged]
- b20000 5y agowhile we are fighting over gender and race gaps, we fail to notice the gap between tech salaries and salaries of marketing and sales executives, C level roles, lawyers and so on.
- tehjoker 5y agoIt's true, but if we do manage to mostly equalize those (and in an ideal world they would be!), it will really sharpen the criticism of the top because there will be nothing left to divide us.
- llampx 5y agoThere will never be a lack of divisions the elites can foster in the populace. If you had told me that in the middle of a pandemic, people would politicize medicinal measures and vaccinations, i would have laughed.
- tehjoker 5y agoWe don't have to win over right-wingers, they're a lost cause. I think among the broad left, the contradictions of race and gender are healing slowly. For example, a black marxist professor told me that in the 1960s white people could not show up to a police brutality protest, but now the George Floyd protests were fully mixed race. The condition of the capitalist system is declining and more people are feeling it. By removing things the elites can point to, we narrow their ability to navigate. The right wing is turning to conspiracy and nationalism as they usually do. However, they are the minority of the country (the friends and family of the ownership class is necessarily smaller than the prolaterians), they just have the ability to do a LOT of damage.
- AnimalMuppet 5y agoYou are badly mistaken if you think the right wing is only, or even primarily, "the friends and family of the ownership class".
- arenaninja 5y agoGreat summary and informative graphics. I wish it was interactive!
- jimbob45 5y agoHonestly though, I can't even begin to evaluate the validity of the study because they locked it behind a $125 paywall.
- johnnyb9 5y agoCrude analysis of gender pay gap. What is the difference in experience level, hours worked, industry, etc.? Pay gap "headed in the wrong direction" could easily be more women entering the field at a junior level, which would actually be heading in the right direction.
- chiefalchemist 5y agoIt's also self-reported. Men, they say, in general are "bolder". That translates to over-stating and/or those with something to "brag" about are more likely to respond.
- z3c0 5y agoWhile I believe "boldness" is more related to personality than to gender, I have noticed the "bragging bias" you've described quite a bit. But it goes both ways. That is to say "people respond to surveys when they have something to say." If you believe you're being paid too little, you're just as likely to chime in as somebody who wants to brag about their pay. It's the folks in the middle who end up not chiming in, out of the belief that they have little insight to offer. Because of this, ootional surveys oftentime yield biases towards the extremes. Source: I've analyzed survey data a lot
- chiefalchemist 5y agoMultiple studies show men on average apply for jobs they are not fully qualified for. Women on the other hand are more "conservative" and take less risk (so to speak). Yes, of course, there are variations from person to person, sans gender. But there are also gender-centric cultural norms.
- jldugger 5y agoMore formally, this is the origin story for Simpson's paradox: when you combine subgroups, trends can disappear or even reverse. The more dimensions you analyze, the close to 'truth' you can get. This is why you have such varying claims about stuff like women earning equal pay with men. People who want social change (activists, politicans) group together the entire population, and come to the conclusion that women make 83 cents on the dollar. But when you break out along other dimensions (age/YOE, occupation, hours worked), the gap is reduced. But never eliminated! What I'd really like to do some day is be smart enough to replicate https://www.metafilter.com/126704/with-numbers-like-these-why-would-women-want-to-work-in-games#4905768 https://www.metafilter.com/126704/with-numbers-like-these-wh... and see how more recent census data compares.
- throwawayhacka 5y agoHeh. I guess I was around median in 1994 :) Sometimes this stuff really bums me out..time to get on leetcode I guess!
- bitcoinmoney 5y agoSo you earn a lot right now?
- jjcon 5y agoThese numbers have more to do with who is responding to the optional IEEE benefits survey (the IEEE target demographic) than it does actual salaries. There is a lot that seems odd with these numbers and they do not appear to be not very representative as they are poorly sampled and undersampled. the very first chart shows slow steady growth and in the others we see tons of massive jumps - for instance they show median male salary jumping from 112k in 2018 to 156k in 2020. That would be an insane jump for an entire industry in 2 years (unless the sampling is poor as is the case here).
- stagger87 5y agoI think I agree. Non-costal median salaries around 150k? Who is responding to this? IEEE members at large companies in senior positions is my guess.
- readingnews 5y agoAgree, I would do anything for that kind of salary.
- bsanr 5y agoRecognizing that the odds of this thread turning into a ****show are high, a piece of general advice: Note whatever you feel compelled to say within the first 5 minutes of your deciding to leave a comment here. Discard it. Write an entirely new comment. Post that instead.
- throwaway2048 5y agoyep, its telling that most of the comments are rushing to make excuses as to why what the article says might not be true. Not to say the article is the gospel truth, and something unexpected might be occurring, but the fact that it seems to be poster's first reflex says a lot.
- bsanr 5y agoThe lack of self-awareness on HN is galling but terribly predictable.
- WrathOfJay 5y agoWould have liked to see these numbers adjusted for cost of living. Making $145,000 in silicon valley is not anywhere comparable to making $145,000 in Podunk Florida, and thus I'm not sure what value to derive from this data, with respect to my own earnings.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- sjg007 5y agoJust scroll down and they provide a regional breakdown and the median difference is about 20k. So it actually makes sense for the median engineer to move to a cheaper location.
- readingnews 5y agoGeez, where the heck do any of these people work?!? I am a unix/linux expert, Ph.D. in computer engineering, and have been a tenure track professor (left to go back to systems administration due to an emergency which caused a family move). Honestly, I have a lot of good experience. I thought I had a good job. I do not make anywhere near what the lowest of those salaries are, and my B.S. is not only in EECE, but I have a lot of analog design experience. Wholy mackerel, where do I sign up for the bottom of the line entry level position at any of those places?
- bitcoinmoney 5y agoYou’re in the wrong company. Move to any semiconductor you’d be at least 180K base with 20 YOE.
- the_only_law 5y agoDoesn’t EE/CE stuff generally cap out lower than software? But anyway I feel you’re experience in regards to salary is going to depend on a number of different things like the market/industry/domain you’re in the market/industry/domain you started or established yourself in, etc.
- readingnews 5y agoSure, but I did not think there was a $50k difference, and that would be me picking a pretty low figure from those graphs. I mean, the median given by the article is literally $60k more than some of the higher paid people I know. And I am not EE/CE in my current role, I teach CS at a uni.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- flyingcircus3 5y agoI would guess that the largest common factor in this survey is a EE/CE degree. After all, that's who joins IEEE.
- eulers_secret 5y agoDoes anyone know if these are base (W2 box 1) or "total comp" numbers? If this is base, I need to push for a raise...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- rank0 5y agoThese numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. Which kinds of people are participating in this IEEE study? I bet those people fit into different demographics and receive different compensation relative to the rest of tech.
- TheDudeMan 5y agoThe real comp numbers are much higher, since these numbers exclude profit sharing, which is greater than base salary for an experience engineer at Big Tech.