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If a shopkeeper submits footage of a crime to the police, the police should be able to keep it as evidence. What's problematic is proactive gathering and aggre

If a shopkeeper submits footage of a crime to the police, the police should be able to keep it as evidence. What's problematic is proactive gathering and aggregation of footage by police or by corporations.

atoav 5y ago
Sure. But we are talking about a global facial recognition technology, not about someones private surveilance video. There is a slight difference between the state having facial recognition AI-Cameras and a privat citizen submitting surveilance footage of their private shop after a crime has been committed, don't you think?
- bsenftner 5y ago
  What is the threshold of scale when a private citizen has multiple homes? Can that individual collect biometrics from their visitors and do whatever, privately, with that data as long as they wish? What if that same individual owned one or more private companies? Can they collect biometrics for internal, private use, then? Even if that private individual is an internationalists, traveling to different countries with access to that data at will, perhaps with specialist staff analyzing that data?
- adolph 5y ago
  When the private citizens use services explicitly connected to state police services, is the difference only a matter of latency? For now it looks like Ring is oriented around geography but its probably just a ToS change away from adding a face-print dimension for lookup. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/06/ring-changed-how-police-request-door-camera-footage-what-it-means-and-doesnt-mean https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/06/ring-changed-how-polic...
throwawaysea 5y ago
Why is that problematic? Individuals are allowed to capture photos and footage in public spaces, and there isn't an expectation of privacy there. I don't see why capturing footage is a problem - without that the cost to actually apprehend a criminal is so high that we might as well not have laws for many crimes.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  expectation of privacy People keep using this phrase as if it's binary. I 100% expect that when I go in public, there isn't someone following me with a notebook, keeping a log of everything I do. I also expect that someone won't walk up into my face and take a picture of me without asking.
  - munk-a 5y ago
    But why won't anyone think of the poor paparazzi that need to be able to take awful photos of people in public so they can destroy people's reputation? It might be nice if we gave public figures a bit more privacy through this whole process.
- feanaro 5y ago
  > without that the cost to actually apprehend a criminal is so high that we might as well not have laws for many crimes. Which crimes are those? Perhaps it's a sign that they shouldn't be considered crimes after all? Whatever those crimes are, we've apparently successfully lived with them prior to the advent of modern mass surveillance technology so it can't be that bad.
- Vrondi 5y ago
  Any crime that is not worth having humans investigate is not worth disrupting a suspected criminal's life. If it isn't worth the cost to society, then society should leave it alone. Due process should be owed to every single citizen, and disrupting their lives should be considered worth the cost.
- atoav 5y ago
  You are not allowed to take a photograph of people in Germany if they are recognizable as individuals.

atoav 5y ago

Sure. But we are talking about a global facial recognition technology, not about someones private surveilance video. There is a slight difference between the state having facial recognition AI-Cameras and a privat citizen submitting surveilance footage of their private shop after a crime has been committed, don't you think?

bsenftner 5y ago
What is the threshold of scale when a private citizen has multiple homes? Can that individual collect biometrics from their visitors and do whatever, privately, with that data as long as they wish? What if that same individual owned one or more private companies? Can they collect biometrics for internal, private use, then? Even if that private individual is an internationalists, traveling to different countries with access to that data at will, perhaps with specialist staff analyzing that data?
adolph 5y ago
When the private citizens use services explicitly connected to state police services, is the difference only a matter of latency? For now it looks like Ring is oriented around geography but its probably just a ToS change away from adding a face-print dimension for lookup. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/06/ring-changed-how-police-request-door-camera-footage-what-it-means-and-doesnt-mean https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/06/ring-changed-how-polic...

throwawaysea 5y ago

Why is that problematic? Individuals are allowed to capture photos and footage in public spaces, and there isn't an expectation of privacy there. I don't see why capturing footage is a problem - without that the cost to actually apprehend a criminal is so high that we might as well not have laws for many crimes.

nitrogen 5y ago
expectation of privacy People keep using this phrase as if it's binary. I 100% expect that when I go in public, there isn't someone following me with a notebook, keeping a log of everything I do. I also expect that someone won't walk up into my face and take a picture of me without asking.
- munk-a 5y ago
  But why won't anyone think of the poor paparazzi that need to be able to take awful photos of people in public so they can destroy people's reputation? It might be nice if we gave public figures a bit more privacy through this whole process.
feanaro 5y ago
> without that the cost to actually apprehend a criminal is so high that we might as well not have laws for many crimes. Which crimes are those? Perhaps it's a sign that they shouldn't be considered crimes after all? Whatever those crimes are, we've apparently successfully lived with them prior to the advent of modern mass surveillance technology so it can't be that bad.
Vrondi 5y ago
Any crime that is not worth having humans investigate is not worth disrupting a suspected criminal's life. If it isn't worth the cost to society, then society should leave it alone. Due process should be owed to every single citizen, and disrupting their lives should be considered worth the cost.
atoav 5y ago
You are not allowed to take a photograph of people in Germany if they are recognizable as individuals.