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We can't. Depression is your brain's reaction to not being able to pick and maintain long-term goals for prolonged time. And the increased number of depressed p

We can't. Depression is your brain's reaction to not being able to pick and maintain long-term goals for prolonged time. And the increased number of depressed people in the past decades is an indication that something about our society is going wrong. Dealing with it without resolving the underlying cause is effectively turning people into obedient work force that has accepted its fate.

diordiderot 5y ago
So the sadness that accompanied working a min wage job full time evenings and weekends through 6 years of university was my inability to pick and maintain my goals, not economic stress and lack of sleep. I feel so daft.
- john_moscow 5y ago
  It was a clear signal from your subconsciousness that you were putting time and effort in something that didn't bring long-term value. If we lived in a pre-corporate era, you could have considered a trade, or helping run a small business, building rapport with the owner, or something else that would have had more meaning. Such things build up character, you sort of gain velocity and habits that help you propel yourself further later in life. Except we destroyed that with low interest rates and turning a blind eye for anticompetitive behavior. Now most people are replaceable cogs that ran out of goals that would motivate them. That's the real, and very big problem. I hope the degree was worth it, because otherwise you have wasted 6 years of your life. Paying for some administrators' trips to Hawaii with your student debt. And that depression feeling was a very clear early warning that could have helped you prevent that.
- scaramanga 5y ago
  Pretty sure that the former is just academic jargon for the latter.
- krageon 5y ago
  Are you sarcastic or do you genuinely not see how those are the same?
reilly3000 5y ago
Depression is the result of an overactive amygdala and has little to do with goal achievement. That can be caused by genetics and/or a wide gamut of environmental and experiential inputs over time. I would think the goal of any intervention is to help people lead more fulfilling lives and prevent self-harm rather than to create a compliant workforce. Think of all of the people who were born like that. Think of the people who had intensely traumatic experiences at a young age such that their systems grew abnormally. Ascribing a lack of self-discipline to those and many others who face that awful affliction is both arrogant and ignorant.
grayhatter 5y ago
Yes that is one very narrow and specific cause of the symptoms of depression. but it is by no means the only thing that causes depression in humans. but the implication that attempting to treat depression without solving the external underlying cause perpetuates the negative stigma around depression treatment and makes it harder for people to consider and accept treatment. Which has been shown over and over and over and over and over again to be required for people with severe depression to be able to take any action to improve their life. Even that's only including the people who are depressed from some external cause that they can take action on. loss of a loved one is something that causes depression and if left untreated can spiral down into a state of despair that people are unable to dig themselves back out of alone. I guess those people should just be happy right?
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  > Yes that is one very narrow and specific cause of the symptoms of depression. but it is by no means the only thing that causes depression in humans. I think it's a problem of terminology really. Grief and depression look very similar to an outside observer and are often conflated, but there are several other mental states that all look pretty similar and are labeled under the umbrella of 'depression' too. Many of them are relatively temporary. I think the kind of depression parent is talking about is the one that's behind the significant and rising percentage of people being diagnosed with, and treated for, depression. Over 10% of the population in the US is on an SSRI, and that cannot be a good sign for society.
_def 5y ago
Using a treatment like this without therapy would be as negligent (even more, actually) as treating a depression patient with drugs only. In order to treat causes of depression successfully in the long term, it can be incredibly helpful to dampen the symptoms short term.
- john_moscow 5y ago
  Oh, there are plenty of ways to dampen the symptoms short term without paying a dime to the healthcare system. One good strenuous hike works wonders. Not talking about forcing yourself to go join a public speaking club or something similar. This involves willpower, but willpower can be trained, just like muscles. We should encourage that and praise that, and help people find their ways of achieving that, rather then cultivating learned helplessness on a national scale.
  - bserge 5y ago
    No, it doesn't. I've cycled for 50km on weekends, I've "hiked" 17km (walked between cities lol) a few times to try it. Yeah, it feels good at the end. And then it's back to the normal depressed state.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
      Agreed. I am also an avid bike rider and 50mi is my standard Saturday morning ride (the more hills the better!). It does feel great, both while doing it and for the better part of the day afterwards. There's a clarity in it that I lack in my day-to-day existence. But it never lasts. I've had a tough time lately, mentally, and went on a bike tour with my dog to a state park 40 miles away for 2 days. Over 100lbs of load. Hiked a good 10 miles while there. Rode back. It felt great and life had clarity for all of 24 hours after. There's a lot of good reasons to exercise, but alleviating depression isn't one of them in my experience.
  - krageon 5y ago
    > works wonders No. This is not reasonable to say, because exercise does not "work wonders". It works a little and it makes you feel a little better, that is it.
fatcow 5y ago
While I usually abhor reductionist conclusions, I find this comment refreshing and hopefully useful to others. Depression isn't simply "lack of serotonin" nor "a series of unfortunate events". There's a theory of a strong association between clinical depression and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness and hopefully society will move forward to enable people to live better lives.
bserge 5y ago
I call it the ADD-anxiety-depression circle. Can't do what you want, get anxious about it, get depressed from it, repeat. But there are other causes for depression. It can simply be a brain with too little of a neurotransmitter or other. SSRIs actually work great for many people, Gabapentin for others. Even in the above example, "ADD" can easily be replaced with "poverty" and you can add some drug addiction in the mix. After years, it just becomes chronic, your new normal and it's very doubtful that you can be normal without serious external help.

diordiderot 5y ago

So the sadness that accompanied working a min wage job full time evenings and weekends through 6 years of university was my inability to pick and maintain my goals, not economic stress and lack of sleep. I feel so daft.

john_moscow 5y ago
It was a clear signal from your subconsciousness that you were putting time and effort in something that didn't bring long-term value. If we lived in a pre-corporate era, you could have considered a trade, or helping run a small business, building rapport with the owner, or something else that would have had more meaning. Such things build up character, you sort of gain velocity and habits that help you propel yourself further later in life. Except we destroyed that with low interest rates and turning a blind eye for anticompetitive behavior. Now most people are replaceable cogs that ran out of goals that would motivate them. That's the real, and very big problem. I hope the degree was worth it, because otherwise you have wasted 6 years of your life. Paying for some administrators' trips to Hawaii with your student debt. And that depression feeling was a very clear early warning that could have helped you prevent that.
scaramanga 5y ago
Pretty sure that the former is just academic jargon for the latter.
krageon 5y ago
Are you sarcastic or do you genuinely not see how those are the same?

reilly3000 5y ago

Depression is the result of an overactive amygdala and has little to do with goal achievement. That can be caused by genetics and/or a wide gamut of environmental and experiential inputs over time. I would think the goal of any intervention is to help people lead more fulfilling lives and prevent self-harm rather than to create a compliant workforce. Think of all of the people who were born like that. Think of the people who had intensely traumatic experiences at a young age such that their systems grew abnormally. Ascribing a lack of self-discipline to those and many others who face that awful affliction is both arrogant and ignorant.

grayhatter 5y ago

Yes that is one very narrow and specific cause of the symptoms of depression. but it is by no means the only thing that causes depression in humans. but the implication that attempting to treat depression without solving the external underlying cause perpetuates the negative stigma around depression treatment and makes it harder for people to consider and accept treatment. Which has been shown over and over and over and over and over again to be required for people with severe depression to be able to take any action to improve their life. Even that's only including the people who are depressed from some external cause that they can take action on. loss of a loved one is something that causes depression and if left untreated can spiral down into a state of despair that people are unable to dig themselves back out of alone. I guess those people should just be happy right?

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
> Yes that is one very narrow and specific cause of the symptoms of depression. but it is by no means the only thing that causes depression in humans. I think it's a problem of terminology really. Grief and depression look very similar to an outside observer and are often conflated, but there are several other mental states that all look pretty similar and are labeled under the umbrella of 'depression' too. Many of them are relatively temporary. I think the kind of depression parent is talking about is the one that's behind the significant and rising percentage of people being diagnosed with, and treated for, depression. Over 10% of the population in the US is on an SSRI, and that cannot be a good sign for society.

_def 5y ago

Using a treatment like this without therapy would be as negligent (even more, actually) as treating a depression patient with drugs only. In order to treat causes of depression successfully in the long term, it can be incredibly helpful to dampen the symptoms short term.

john_moscow 5y ago
Oh, there are plenty of ways to dampen the symptoms short term without paying a dime to the healthcare system. One good strenuous hike works wonders. Not talking about forcing yourself to go join a public speaking club or something similar. This involves willpower, but willpower can be trained, just like muscles. We should encourage that and praise that, and help people find their ways of achieving that, rather then cultivating learned helplessness on a national scale.
- bserge 5y ago
  No, it doesn't. I've cycled for 50km on weekends, I've "hiked" 17km (walked between cities lol) a few times to try it. Yeah, it feels good at the end. And then it's back to the normal depressed state.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    Agreed. I am also an avid bike rider and 50mi is my standard Saturday morning ride (the more hills the better!). It does feel great, both while doing it and for the better part of the day afterwards. There's a clarity in it that I lack in my day-to-day existence. But it never lasts. I've had a tough time lately, mentally, and went on a bike tour with my dog to a state park 40 miles away for 2 days. Over 100lbs of load. Hiked a good 10 miles while there. Rode back. It felt great and life had clarity for all of 24 hours after. There's a lot of good reasons to exercise, but alleviating depression isn't one of them in my experience.
- krageon 5y ago
  > works wonders No. This is not reasonable to say, because exercise does not "work wonders". It works a little and it makes you feel a little better, that is it.

fatcow 5y ago

While I usually abhor reductionist conclusions, I find this comment refreshing and hopefully useful to others. Depression isn't simply "lack of serotonin" nor "a series of unfortunate events". There's a theory of a strong association between clinical depression and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness and hopefully society will move forward to enable people to live better lives.

bserge 5y ago

I call it the ADD-anxiety-depression circle. Can't do what you want, get anxious about it, get depressed from it, repeat. But there are other causes for depression. It can simply be a brain with too little of a neurotransmitter or other. SSRIs actually work great for many people, Gabapentin for others. Even in the above example, "ADD" can easily be replaced with "poverty" and you can add some drug addiction in the mix. After years, it just becomes chronic, your new normal and it's very doubtful that you can be normal without serious external help.