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I hired someone well educated from a Top Ivy League university but they had no motivation whatsoever. I tried my best, gave them everything they wanted (money,

I hired someone well educated from a Top Ivy League university but they had no motivation whatsoever. I tried my best, gave them everything they wanted (money, work style, tools, training) but they just wouldn't want to be motivated and we failed collectively. They were very smart otherwise and definitely could learn the skills. When I am hiring, for me the biggest things are motivation, curiosity and caring for your own career. If you don't show me those traits, I am very hesitant to hire you. I meet a lot of candidates who have no idea why they applied, what they want in life for themselves but are just randomly sending their Resume hoping it sticks.

Jensson 5y ago
It isn't that people from Ivy League universities are unmotivated, it is that those people has so many options that unless you are a top company you almost surely wont see them unless there is something wrong with them. > When I am hiring, for me the biggest things are motivation, curiosity and caring for your own career. If you don't show me those traits, I am very hesitant to hire you. Yet you just explained that you hired this person just because they had a Top Ivy on their resume. You might not repeat that mistake but you did do it once.
- codegeek 5y ago
  Yep pretty much.
- cloverich 5y ago
  learning from that mistake was the entire point of the preamble to their current views on hiring.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
> I meet a lot of candidates who have no idea why they applied, what they want in life for themselves but are just randoming sending their Resume hoping it sticks. Yeah, well, while I'm working on that I still need to put food on the table, so I'll apologize ahead of time for faking like I give a rats ass about a career long enough to get through the interview process.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Indeed. Having a career of some sort isn’t optional if you want a decent life. I suspect those candidates know very well why they applied. It just is a socially demanded requirement that they don’t give that particular reason.
- quickthrower2 5y ago
  Gotta jump through the hoops- technical and social
- theyx 5y ago
  Exactly this! I cannot believe someone is naïve enough to think total strangers will start caring about some company's progress, profits and reputation just because they are being paid minimum wage. Sorry, literally 99% of people who are seen as "do-ers" or motivated are only putting up a show to be hired and to keep their jobs. Being hungry and homeless is a great motivator. None is genuinely excited about your business as much as you are, and if you require them to be, then pay them a CEO salary.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - n8cpdx 5y ago
    This doesn't make sense. There are loads of people (myself included) who are intrinsically motivated to do good work. And not just in the tech industry. Look at all the volunteer opportunities, unpajd city boards, etc that people get themselves involved in. People can be motivated by wanting to make a difference. And yes, some software companies do in fact make products and services that make a difference in people's lives.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - User23 5y ago
      > Look at all the volunteer opportunities, unpajd city boards, etc that people get themselves involved in. Positions such as these often pay in increased social status. Just because the compensation is intangible doesn’t mean it’s not real. Working at an animal shelter may well raise your status with potential partners. Working on a city advisory board will definitely get you noticed and can be a stepping board toward political office. And even an unpaid senior position at a well-funded and prestigious foundation results in a great deal of clout.
theyx 5y ago
> caring for your own career. It is often the problem that employers equate "caring for your career" to "caring for my company's profits".
theyx 5y ago
Everyone knows why they applied, but for the benefit of employers, we have created a society in which it is not acceptable to say "I'm only here for the money, I literally do not care about your company."
- wongarsu 5y ago
  Imagine there are two applicants who are equal in every way, just that one genuinely likes the job and has the same goals as the company, and the other is just there for the money. It's not hard to see why anyone would prefer the first candidate. That's the one who is motivated and will go above and beyond if required. As a secondary effect, applicants of course notice that they are more likely to be hired if they just pretend like they care. And if everyone pretends, the one person who says they are just there for the money is at a disadvantage to everyone else.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    > As a secondary effect, applicants of course notice that they are more likely to be hired if they just pretend like they care. And if everyone pretends, the one person who says they are just there for the money is at a disadvantage to everyone else. I've seen people motivate this by saying that not faking it shows you lack social skills. In the end the customer is never wrong, and when you are selling your time the customer is your manager so keep that smile up! (I hate this culture, but I adapted just like everyone else)
  - advael 5y ago
    Okay, but even without the second-order effects of signaling games, selecting for enthusiasm is a risky strategy because earnest motivation is not the only or even the most important factor in their contribution. In many cases, a competent professional who gets you the best result might be someone who gives no fucks about the business inherently but does a good job because this strategy betters their reputation (or just their value full stop to their present employer) over time and thus their expected payscale, or just happens to be good at the thing and just wants a stable paycheck. There two major reasons this matters: 1. In many cases no amount of enthusiasm for your business is more valuable than the hard skills you need. If it were, why can't you, the founder, with enough enthusiasm to start the business in the first place, simply do everything? 2. Genuine enthusiasm is *volatile*. If someone who isn't making business decisions cares deeply about the business' stated goals, they may well take a minor pivot or a strategic choice they disagree with as a slight or even a betrayal, and that enthusiasm quickly disappears or goes negative. In contrast, your indifferent professional has transparent and predictable motivations and you can stay aligned merely by continuing to pay them enough. Personally, I think people select for enthusiasm about the business for the same reason they might select friends who tell them how cool or attractive or smart they are, and it's a not an amazing strategy for similar reasons.
MattGaiser 5y ago
> I meet a lot of candidates who have no idea why they applied, what they want in life for themselves but are just randomly sending their Resume hoping it sticks. The problem is that finding something isn't optional, so when your dream doesn't work out, it is just a matter of finding what else might accept you. So many people, when asked about what they want from life, are essentially asking back, "what are my options?"
ThrowawayR2 5y ago
I have to shake my head when reading some of the replies the parent poster is getting. It is sobering to see so many who have no love for their profession and are trapped into staying solely for money; that's a recipe for an unhappy existence, as can be seen from the bitterness evident in their words.
- CincinnatiMan 5y ago
  Meh, there are in-betweens. I neither love my profession nor feel trapped by it. It's a decent and low-stress way to make good enough money such that I can do things I actually love, such as spending time with my wife and son, or playing sports. If I were rich I wouldn't do any coding, and I doubt there are many in the profession who would. Not because I hate coding, it's fine, I just like other things more.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Many people wouldn't be at their jobs if they weren't paid to do them. Many people don't do what they do out of love for the work. "On the whole, American workers are generally satisfied with their jobs. Even so, a significant share (30%) view the work they do as “just a job to get them by,” rather than a career or a steppingstone to a career. Views about work are sharply divided along socio-economic lines, and the sense of vulnerability is most acute among workers with no college education and lower-than-average household incomes." "In addition to job satisfaction, the survey explored what American workers’ jobs mean to them – are their jobs central to who they are, or are they mainly just a source of income? About half (51%) of employed Americans say they get a sense of identity from their job, while the other half (47%) say their job is just what they do for a living. And about half (51%) of all U.S. workers say they view their job as a career, while 18% see it as a steppingstone to a career and 30% say it’s just a job to get them by." https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2016/10/06/3-how-americans-view-their-jobs/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2016/10/06/3-how-a... (Pew Research: How Americans view their jobs)
  - ThrowawayR2 5y ago
    Sure, that's true for the general population but I don't think that applies here. While software isn't quite as demanding as say law or medicine, it still takes quite a bit of effort and skill to become truly proficient in our profession. Anyone talented enough to succeed at building software is also talented enough to succeed at other well paying professions; it cannot be said that we didn't choose the profession we're currently employed in.
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
"meet a lot of candidates who have no idea why they applied, what they want in life for themselves" I feel that in this discussion we are conflating being lost and being unmotivated - they could be highly motivated and trying every opportunity, but have no clue what they are doing.
richardw 5y ago
The career one can be hard. I typically care more than most. I thrive in environments where what I’m doing adds value and fits my own values. I love the challenge, I love building, I love working with amazing people. I’m nearer the end of my career than beginning and I’m still not too sure what I want.

Jensson 5y ago

It isn't that people from Ivy League universities are unmotivated, it is that those people has so many options that unless you are a top company you almost surely wont see them unless there is something wrong with them. > When I am hiring, for me the biggest things are motivation, curiosity and caring for your own career. If you don't show me those traits, I am very hesitant to hire you. Yet you just explained that you hired this person just because they had a Top Ivy on their resume. You might not repeat that mistake but you did do it once.

codegeek 5y ago
Yep pretty much.
cloverich 5y ago
learning from that mistake was the entire point of the preamble to their current views on hiring.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago

> I meet a lot of candidates who have no idea why they applied, what they want in life for themselves but are just randoming sending their Resume hoping it sticks. Yeah, well, while I'm working on that I still need to put food on the table, so I'll apologize ahead of time for faking like I give a rats ass about a career long enough to get through the interview process.

MattGaiser 5y ago
Indeed. Having a career of some sort isn’t optional if you want a decent life. I suspect those candidates know very well why they applied. It just is a socially demanded requirement that they don’t give that particular reason.
quickthrower2 5y ago
Gotta jump through the hoops- technical and social
theyx 5y ago
Exactly this! I cannot believe someone is naïve enough to think total strangers will start caring about some company's progress, profits and reputation just because they are being paid minimum wage. Sorry, literally 99% of people who are seen as "do-ers" or motivated are only putting up a show to be hired and to keep their jobs. Being hungry and homeless is a great motivator. None is genuinely excited about your business as much as you are, and if you require them to be, then pay them a CEO salary.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- n8cpdx 5y ago
  This doesn't make sense. There are loads of people (myself included) who are intrinsically motivated to do good work. And not just in the tech industry. Look at all the volunteer opportunities, unpajd city boards, etc that people get themselves involved in. People can be motivated by wanting to make a difference. And yes, some software companies do in fact make products and services that make a difference in people's lives.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - User23 5y ago
    > Look at all the volunteer opportunities, unpajd city boards, etc that people get themselves involved in. Positions such as these often pay in increased social status. Just because the compensation is intangible doesn’t mean it’s not real. Working at an animal shelter may well raise your status with potential partners. Working on a city advisory board will definitely get you noticed and can be a stepping board toward political office. And even an unpaid senior position at a well-funded and prestigious foundation results in a great deal of clout.

theyx 5y ago

> caring for your own career. It is often the problem that employers equate "caring for your career" to "caring for my company's profits".

theyx 5y ago

Everyone knows why they applied, but for the benefit of employers, we have created a society in which it is not acceptable to say "I'm only here for the money, I literally do not care about your company."

wongarsu 5y ago
Imagine there are two applicants who are equal in every way, just that one genuinely likes the job and has the same goals as the company, and the other is just there for the money. It's not hard to see why anyone would prefer the first candidate. That's the one who is motivated and will go above and beyond if required. As a secondary effect, applicants of course notice that they are more likely to be hired if they just pretend like they care. And if everyone pretends, the one person who says they are just there for the money is at a disadvantage to everyone else.
- Jensson 5y ago
  > As a secondary effect, applicants of course notice that they are more likely to be hired if they just pretend like they care. And if everyone pretends, the one person who says they are just there for the money is at a disadvantage to everyone else. I've seen people motivate this by saying that not faking it shows you lack social skills. In the end the customer is never wrong, and when you are selling your time the customer is your manager so keep that smile up! (I hate this culture, but I adapted just like everyone else)
- advael 5y ago
  Okay, but even without the second-order effects of signaling games, selecting for enthusiasm is a risky strategy because earnest motivation is not the only or even the most important factor in their contribution. In many cases, a competent professional who gets you the best result might be someone who gives no fucks about the business inherently but does a good job because this strategy betters their reputation (or just their value full stop to their present employer) over time and thus their expected payscale, or just happens to be good at the thing and just wants a stable paycheck. There two major reasons this matters: 1. In many cases no amount of enthusiasm for your business is more valuable than the hard skills you need. If it were, why can't you, the founder, with enough enthusiasm to start the business in the first place, simply do everything? 2. Genuine enthusiasm is *volatile*. If someone who isn't making business decisions cares deeply about the business' stated goals, they may well take a minor pivot or a strategic choice they disagree with as a slight or even a betrayal, and that enthusiasm quickly disappears or goes negative. In contrast, your indifferent professional has transparent and predictable motivations and you can stay aligned merely by continuing to pay them enough. Personally, I think people select for enthusiasm about the business for the same reason they might select friends who tell them how cool or attractive or smart they are, and it's a not an amazing strategy for similar reasons.

MattGaiser 5y ago

> I meet a lot of candidates who have no idea why they applied, what they want in life for themselves but are just randomly sending their Resume hoping it sticks. The problem is that finding something isn't optional, so when your dream doesn't work out, it is just a matter of finding what else might accept you. So many people, when asked about what they want from life, are essentially asking back, "what are my options?"

ThrowawayR2 5y ago

I have to shake my head when reading some of the replies the parent poster is getting. It is sobering to see so many who have no love for their profession and are trapped into staying solely for money; that's a recipe for an unhappy existence, as can be seen from the bitterness evident in their words.

CincinnatiMan 5y ago
Meh, there are in-betweens. I neither love my profession nor feel trapped by it. It's a decent and low-stress way to make good enough money such that I can do things I actually love, such as spending time with my wife and son, or playing sports. If I were rich I wouldn't do any coding, and I doubt there are many in the profession who would. Not because I hate coding, it's fine, I just like other things more.
toomuchtodo 5y ago
Many people wouldn't be at their jobs if they weren't paid to do them. Many people don't do what they do out of love for the work. "On the whole, American workers are generally satisfied with their jobs. Even so, a significant share (30%) view the work they do as “just a job to get them by,” rather than a career or a steppingstone to a career. Views about work are sharply divided along socio-economic lines, and the sense of vulnerability is most acute among workers with no college education and lower-than-average household incomes." "In addition to job satisfaction, the survey explored what American workers’ jobs mean to them – are their jobs central to who they are, or are they mainly just a source of income? About half (51%) of employed Americans say they get a sense of identity from their job, while the other half (47%) say their job is just what they do for a living. And about half (51%) of all U.S. workers say they view their job as a career, while 18% see it as a steppingstone to a career and 30% say it’s just a job to get them by." https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2016/10/06/3-how-americans-view-their-jobs/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2016/10/06/3-how-a... (Pew Research: How Americans view their jobs)
- ThrowawayR2 5y ago
  Sure, that's true for the general population but I don't think that applies here. While software isn't quite as demanding as say law or medicine, it still takes quite a bit of effort and skill to become truly proficient in our profession. Anyone talented enough to succeed at building software is also talented enough to succeed at other well paying professions; it cannot be said that we didn't choose the profession we're currently employed in.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

"meet a lot of candidates who have no idea why they applied, what they want in life for themselves" I feel that in this discussion we are conflating being lost and being unmotivated - they could be highly motivated and trying every opportunity, but have no clue what they are doing.

richardw 5y ago

The career one can be hard. I typically care more than most. I thrive in environments where what I’m doing adds value and fits my own values. I love the challenge, I love building, I love working with amazing people. I’m nearer the end of my career than beginning and I’m still not too sure what I want.