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Personally, if not for the real world resource usage, I would be extremely supportive of cryptocurrencies replacing the traditional financial system for reasons

Personally, if not for the real world resource usage, I would be extremely supportive of cryptocurrencies replacing the traditional financial system for reasons that overlap with your reasons for opposing crypto. Essentially, the financial sector has succeeded so wildly in regulatory capture that we have lost any semblance of democratic control over banks and are unable to dispense punitive consequences for large scale criminal behavior in finance. There have still been no consequences for large banks issuing known bad mortgages in the early 2000s and then reselling those mortgages in bundles with artificially inflated default rate claims. This "trick" was deployed by most major banks and lead to disastrous consequences for people far removed from finance. Having a route to opt out of traditional finance for e.g. savings accounts, loans, and basic investments, feels like it actually improves the health of our democracy.

endisneigh 5y ago
Wouldn't the solution be to educate people and get more people to participate in our democracy? Why do you think cryptocurrencies are better?
- openfuture 5y ago
  Any "solution" that rests on "educating people" is not going to work. What works is incentives and design that makes it hard to misuse or obvious how to use.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    > Any "solution" that rests on "educating people" is not going to work. This is not true at all, lol. How do you think modern civilization came to be?
    - openfuture 5y ago
      Man, I think our premises are incompatible, I view "civilization" as regression and arrogance (read the Wikipedia intro or dictionary definition and tell me otherwise). It doesn't solve anything for anyone, it's just an effective system of slavery.
- Karrot_Kream 5y ago
  Honestly, for the same reason that we place regulations on businesses instead of just "educating people about their harms". While I'm interested in cryptocurrencies, I'm not an anarcho-capitalist myself, but I do understand the perspective of having an alternative to a (perceived) corpo-state where economic _and_ political actors are all in thrall to large corporations that form an effective oligopoly. Moreover cryptocurrencies aren't forcing you to do anything as much as a new fashion trend doesn't force you to wear the new fashion. There's been a rich history of debate within democratic states about how much power the government should have on its people, this certainly isn't some cut-and-dry affair. Democratic governments understand that the solution to _everything_ isn't committees of citizens and votes on everything. Democratic governments rely on experts, private businesses, and regulation to bring welfare to their people. Real democratic governments have to balance many factors for the welfare of their people. I feel your view of democracy is a little too naive and unrealistic.
joe_the_user 5y ago
There have still been no consequences for large banks issuing known bad mortgages in the early 2000s and then reselling those mortgages in bundles with artificially inflated default rate claims. I'm not sure how a cryptocurrency based financial system, designed so that there can be never be criminal justice consequences for any financial action, is supposed to be an answer to particular abuses without consequences in the ordinary financial system. The state doesn't do a great job regulating bad actors in the financial system - how can "let them do whatever they want" be the answer to that? If we had an ethereum based loan system, in the ideal, home owners could not get relief for the most abusive contract and those who made those contracts could remain anonymous and inherently immune to consequences.
- iskander 5y ago
  "designed so that there can be never be criminal justice consequences for any financial action" I don't see why that's true at all, cryptocurrencies are public ledgers with mostly KYC'd on/off ramps. You can pursue criminals, but it's harder to create collusion-based regulatory monopolies. Users of financial products have more choices through self custody and the diversity of decentralized financial products. The merger of decentralized finance with a better regulatory/taxation framework (+ a few safety features) will significantly dis-intermediate mainstream finance and deal a major blow to Wall Street. It's going to be great. >If we had an ethereum based loan system, in the ideal, home owners could not get relief for the most abusive contract and those who made those contracts could remain anonymous and inherently immune to consequences. Smaller scale crimes may be harder to track down but large scale institutional crimes will be easier to prosecute since e.g. Aave will never have the regulatory clout of Bank of America. Decentralized finance institutions adding systemic hazard to our financial system will be more vulnerable to governmental actions and individuals will have more choices to not participate in an opaquely corrupt system of finance that manages to ensnare everyone through savings and retirement funds. I don't want the money I save to be funneled to the investment banking arm of a mega-corp which then destabilizes the entire country with impunity.
  - joe_the_user 5y ago
    I don't see why that's true at all, cryptocurrencies are public ledgers with mostly KYC'd on/off ramps. Explain how bitcoin has become the go-to tool for ransomware gangs. Moreover, the intent of cryptocurrency creators and substantial number of cryptocurrency users is to be immune to regulation. You can read the number of posters here who view bitcoin as answer to the power of the Fed. Maybe crypto can be so controlled by regulators that it won't anything, in which case there's no idealistic argument for its existence. Or maybe crypto could make it's users immune to consequences, in which case there are good arguments to follow China's lead and make the system point-blank illegal.

endisneigh 5y ago

Wouldn't the solution be to educate people and get more people to participate in our democracy? Why do you think cryptocurrencies are better?

openfuture 5y ago
Any "solution" that rests on "educating people" is not going to work. What works is incentives and design that makes it hard to misuse or obvious how to use.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  > Any "solution" that rests on "educating people" is not going to work. This is not true at all, lol. How do you think modern civilization came to be?
  - openfuture 5y ago
    Man, I think our premises are incompatible, I view "civilization" as regression and arrogance (read the Wikipedia intro or dictionary definition and tell me otherwise). It doesn't solve anything for anyone, it's just an effective system of slavery.
Karrot_Kream 5y ago
Honestly, for the same reason that we place regulations on businesses instead of just "educating people about their harms". While I'm interested in cryptocurrencies, I'm not an anarcho-capitalist myself, but I do understand the perspective of having an alternative to a (perceived) corpo-state where economic _and_ political actors are all in thrall to large corporations that form an effective oligopoly. Moreover cryptocurrencies aren't forcing you to do anything as much as a new fashion trend doesn't force you to wear the new fashion. There's been a rich history of debate within democratic states about how much power the government should have on its people, this certainly isn't some cut-and-dry affair. Democratic governments understand that the solution to _everything_ isn't committees of citizens and votes on everything. Democratic governments rely on experts, private businesses, and regulation to bring welfare to their people. Real democratic governments have to balance many factors for the welfare of their people. I feel your view of democracy is a little too naive and unrealistic.

joe_the_user 5y ago

There have still been no consequences for large banks issuing known bad mortgages in the early 2000s and then reselling those mortgages in bundles with artificially inflated default rate claims. I'm not sure how a cryptocurrency based financial system, designed so that there can be never be criminal justice consequences for any financial action, is supposed to be an answer to particular abuses without consequences in the ordinary financial system. The state doesn't do a great job regulating bad actors in the financial system - how can "let them do whatever they want" be the answer to that? If we had an ethereum based loan system, in the ideal, home owners could not get relief for the most abusive contract and those who made those contracts could remain anonymous and inherently immune to consequences.

iskander 5y ago
"designed so that there can be never be criminal justice consequences for any financial action" I don't see why that's true at all, cryptocurrencies are public ledgers with mostly KYC'd on/off ramps. You can pursue criminals, but it's harder to create collusion-based regulatory monopolies. Users of financial products have more choices through self custody and the diversity of decentralized financial products. The merger of decentralized finance with a better regulatory/taxation framework (+ a few safety features) will significantly dis-intermediate mainstream finance and deal a major blow to Wall Street. It's going to be great. >If we had an ethereum based loan system, in the ideal, home owners could not get relief for the most abusive contract and those who made those contracts could remain anonymous and inherently immune to consequences. Smaller scale crimes may be harder to track down but large scale institutional crimes will be easier to prosecute since e.g. Aave will never have the regulatory clout of Bank of America. Decentralized finance institutions adding systemic hazard to our financial system will be more vulnerable to governmental actions and individuals will have more choices to not participate in an opaquely corrupt system of finance that manages to ensnare everyone through savings and retirement funds. I don't want the money I save to be funneled to the investment banking arm of a mega-corp which then destabilizes the entire country with impunity.
- joe_the_user 5y ago
  I don't see why that's true at all, cryptocurrencies are public ledgers with mostly KYC'd on/off ramps. Explain how bitcoin has become the go-to tool for ransomware gangs. Moreover, the intent of cryptocurrency creators and substantial number of cryptocurrency users is to be immune to regulation. You can read the number of posters here who view bitcoin as answer to the power of the Fed. Maybe crypto can be so controlled by regulators that it won't anything, in which case there's no idealistic argument for its existence. Or maybe crypto could make it's users immune to consequences, in which case there are good arguments to follow China's lead and make the system point-blank illegal.