9 ms·

How effective were the traditional means of removing oligarchs? The US just elected a game show host president 4 years ago.

by dqx 5y ago

endisneigh 5y ago
Is the game show host still president?
- NoGravitas 5y ago
  25% of all Americans, and 53% of self-identified Republicans believe so.
- haswell 5y ago
  The fact that he is not does not invalidate the parent comment and your question sidesteps the fact that he left lasting damage that is still playing out on the political stage today.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    It literally does. He was democratically removed. The fact he left lasting damage is besides the point, and no system of government can prevent bad actors, only minimize the damage.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - dqx 5y ago
      He was an oligarch, and then was democratically elected. His supreme court appointees will continue to enforce his policies for the rest of their lives. > no system of government can prevent bad actors Everything's the same! So crypto's no worse then?
      - endisneigh 5y ago
        > His supreme court appointees will continue to enforce his policies for the rest of their lives. that's not how the legislature works. A motivated majority can undo anything via the passing of new legislation via an election of a majority of the house and senate. > Everything's the same! So crypto's no worse then? I already explained in the GP. Give it a read.
        dqx 5y ago
        Agreed, he was an oligarch, and then was democratically elected, but who's to say what Brett "Devil’s Triangle" Kavanaugh will do in the face of a motivated majority?
        foobar2021 5y ago
        Get dragged out his chair by the military?
    - brighton36 5y ago
      It was a show election. The rules were changed mid-game, on the pretense of corona, to rig the outcome.
iszomer 5y ago
Shouldn't be a surprise as we've elected an actor before.
- dqx 5y ago
  Reagan was a former governor whose net worth paled in comparison to Trump's. He was not an oligarch.
  - iszomer 5y ago
    > ..The US just elected a game show host president 4 years ago. ^ Was responding to this. He really _was_ an actor prior to becoming governor of California. Actor, media mogul, "game show host", why should it be any different? Even Michael Bloomberg served in politics as mayor of NYC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan_filmography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan_filmography
    - dqx 5y ago
      Yes I know. Trump was elected because he was an oligarch, not because of his political experience. Reagan had (comparatively) none of the wealth and real political experience at the federal level. He was not an oligarch.
      - iszomer 5y ago
        > Trump was elected because he was an oligarch, Can you source this or is this your personal opinion of him? I'm trying to understand why you're defining this as a purely oligarchal issue where there are many other such instances of oligarchism in history whether it'd be politics or tech/FAANG. > ..not because of his political experience. Well he's certainly no Reagan given his class(ism) progression or upbringing, as described on Wikipedia. Is that really the issue here though, because he lacked "political experience" upon entry into the presidency?
        dqx 5y ago
joe_the_user 5y ago
Certainly democracy and egalitarianism are struggling in the present world, to say the least. But I'd say the gp is correct that bitcoin 100% hinders them and 0% helps them.
pjc50 5y ago
They managed to remove him democratically despite a rebel faction storming the capitol. Slightly less dramatic than Yeltsin on a tank, though.
- dqx 5y ago
  5 deaths and at least 138 police officers injured. I'd argue Trump's Capitol riot was more dramatic. It even resulted in more suicides.
  - 0xebc 5y ago
    >5 deaths You fell for fake news. Three of the deaths were from natural causes, one was from a drug overdose: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_United_States_Capitol_attack https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_United_States_Capitol_a... "5 deaths (1 from gunshot, 1 from drug overdose, 3 from natural causes)"
- twofornone 5y ago
  It's really weird how these far right "terrorists" all stormed the capitol to "overturn the election" and "hang mike pence" but, somehow, completely forgot to bring the guns that they are so well known for having. Pretty funny way to go about an "insurrection", don't you think?
  - dqx 5y ago
    Makes you wonder why congressman Mo Brooks (R-Alabama) wore body armor to the riot, huh? Maybe to protect against the stun guns, pepper spray, baseball bats and pipe bombs? 14 suspects in the attack are facing federal charges related to bringing dangerous weapons inside the Capitol, 2 are facing firearms-related charges. Why didn't you tell DC's US Attorney’s Office that they were actually unarmed?!
    - twofornone 5y ago
      >14 suspects in the attack are facing federal charges related to bringing dangerous weapons inside the Capito There hasn't been a single conviction related to insurrection or anything more sinister than rioting or trespassing to date. Don't get your hopes up. Further, note the misleading language used in reporting, "armed", "dangerous weapons", but not guns (save the two facing ambiguous "firearms related charges") which as far as I know had nothing to do with actually bringing firearms onto the premises. The popular idea that the rioters were armed with guns is effectively (and deliberately) misinformation, though you won't find an article outright lying about guns inside the capitol. As for the alleged pipe bombs, one was found at both Democratic and Republican offices, and there is still no publicly released information as to who planted them. You'd think with a place as heavily surveilled as the capitol there would be no issue producing images of trespassers with guns on premises, yet you'd be hard pressed to find a single one[1]. Even moreso if you watch the livestreams of the event, where there are no guns brandished. There was one arrest made of a participant who allegedly had a number of guns in his truck. >Why didn't you tell DC's US Attorney’s Office that they were actually unarmed If your "insurrection" consists of a population known for owning guns, yet arrives 99% unarmed, then it becomes much more difficult to convince people that they were staging an "insurrection" or "coup". If nothing else, surely we can at least agree that, given the lack of firearms and damage, this was a "fiery, but mostly peaceful protest", right? This whole story is merely an egregious example of the politicization of our media and justice system. 1. There is to my knowledge a single security video showing a single person wandering into the capitol through a backdoor carrying an AR style rifle for about 15 seconds before walking out.
pjc50 5y ago
> How effective were the traditional means of removing oligarchs? Having got the joke out of the way in a sibling comment, a serious one: "Oligarch" is an oddly modern term, usually applied to Russians in the post communist era, and of course they weren't removed. Buying your way into power is highly effective. And can expand into other countries, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgeny_Lebedev https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgeny_Lebedev Prior to the modern era (20th century), even the democratic countries were only partly democratic (restricted electorates). Most were constitutional monarchs, and of course the traditional way of removing a monarch is execution. Democracy provides a way of getting rid of bad leaders without having to have violence .. but that does also rely on them acquiescing in the result.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Many were removed in Russia by government force. Thrown into prison or exiled to London. Speaking of ex-powerful leaders how is Jack Ma doing?

How effective were the traditional means of removing oligarchs? The US just elected a game show host president 4 years ago.

by dqx 5y ago

How effective were the traditional means of removing oligarchs? The US just elected a game show host president 4 years ago.

endisneigh 5y ago

Is the game show host still president?

NoGravitas 5y ago
25% of all Americans, and 53% of self-identified Republicans believe so.
haswell 5y ago
The fact that he is not does not invalidate the parent comment and your question sidesteps the fact that he left lasting damage that is still playing out on the political stage today.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  It literally does. He was democratically removed. The fact he left lasting damage is besides the point, and no system of government can prevent bad actors, only minimize the damage.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - dqx 5y ago
    He was an oligarch, and then was democratically elected. His supreme court appointees will continue to enforce his policies for the rest of their lives. > no system of government can prevent bad actors Everything's the same! So crypto's no worse then?
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      > His supreme court appointees will continue to enforce his policies for the rest of their lives. that's not how the legislature works. A motivated majority can undo anything via the passing of new legislation via an election of a majority of the house and senate. > Everything's the same! So crypto's no worse then? I already explained in the GP. Give it a read.
      - dqx 5y ago
        Agreed, he was an oligarch, and then was democratically elected, but who's to say what Brett "Devil’s Triangle" Kavanaugh will do in the face of a motivated majority?
        foobar2021 5y ago
        Get dragged out his chair by the military?
  - brighton36 5y ago
    It was a show election. The rules were changed mid-game, on the pretense of corona, to rig the outcome.

iszomer 5y ago

Shouldn't be a surprise as we've elected an actor before.

dqx 5y ago
Reagan was a former governor whose net worth paled in comparison to Trump's. He was not an oligarch.
- iszomer 5y ago
  > ..The US just elected a game show host president 4 years ago. ^ Was responding to this. He really _was_ an actor prior to becoming governor of California. Actor, media mogul, "game show host", why should it be any different? Even Michael Bloomberg served in politics as mayor of NYC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan_filmography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan_filmography
  - dqx 5y ago
    Yes I know. Trump was elected because he was an oligarch, not because of his political experience. Reagan had (comparatively) none of the wealth and real political experience at the federal level. He was not an oligarch.
    - iszomer 5y ago
      > Trump was elected because he was an oligarch, Can you source this or is this your personal opinion of him? I'm trying to understand why you're defining this as a purely oligarchal issue where there are many other such instances of oligarchism in history whether it'd be politics or tech/FAANG. > ..not because of his political experience. Well he's certainly no Reagan given his class(ism) progression or upbringing, as described on Wikipedia. Is that really the issue here though, because he lacked "political experience" upon entry into the presidency?
      - dqx 5y ago

joe_the_user 5y ago

Certainly democracy and egalitarianism are struggling in the present world, to say the least. But I'd say the gp is correct that bitcoin 100% hinders them and 0% helps them.

pjc50 5y ago

They managed to remove him democratically despite a rebel faction storming the capitol. Slightly less dramatic than Yeltsin on a tank, though.

dqx 5y ago
5 deaths and at least 138 police officers injured. I'd argue Trump's Capitol riot was more dramatic. It even resulted in more suicides.
- 0xebc 5y ago
  >5 deaths You fell for fake news. Three of the deaths were from natural causes, one was from a drug overdose: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_United_States_Capitol_attack https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_United_States_Capitol_a... "5 deaths (1 from gunshot, 1 from drug overdose, 3 from natural causes)"
twofornone 5y ago
It's really weird how these far right "terrorists" all stormed the capitol to "overturn the election" and "hang mike pence" but, somehow, completely forgot to bring the guns that they are so well known for having. Pretty funny way to go about an "insurrection", don't you think?
- dqx 5y ago
  Makes you wonder why congressman Mo Brooks (R-Alabama) wore body armor to the riot, huh? Maybe to protect against the stun guns, pepper spray, baseball bats and pipe bombs? 14 suspects in the attack are facing federal charges related to bringing dangerous weapons inside the Capitol, 2 are facing firearms-related charges. Why didn't you tell DC's US Attorney’s Office that they were actually unarmed?!
  - twofornone 5y ago
    >14 suspects in the attack are facing federal charges related to bringing dangerous weapons inside the Capito There hasn't been a single conviction related to insurrection or anything more sinister than rioting or trespassing to date. Don't get your hopes up. Further, note the misleading language used in reporting, "armed", "dangerous weapons", but not guns (save the two facing ambiguous "firearms related charges") which as far as I know had nothing to do with actually bringing firearms onto the premises. The popular idea that the rioters were armed with guns is effectively (and deliberately) misinformation, though you won't find an article outright lying about guns inside the capitol. As for the alleged pipe bombs, one was found at both Democratic and Republican offices, and there is still no publicly released information as to who planted them. You'd think with a place as heavily surveilled as the capitol there would be no issue producing images of trespassers with guns on premises, yet you'd be hard pressed to find a single one[1]. Even moreso if you watch the livestreams of the event, where there are no guns brandished. There was one arrest made of a participant who allegedly had a number of guns in his truck. >Why didn't you tell DC's US Attorney’s Office that they were actually unarmed If your "insurrection" consists of a population known for owning guns, yet arrives 99% unarmed, then it becomes much more difficult to convince people that they were staging an "insurrection" or "coup". If nothing else, surely we can at least agree that, given the lack of firearms and damage, this was a "fiery, but mostly peaceful protest", right? This whole story is merely an egregious example of the politicization of our media and justice system. 1. There is to my knowledge a single security video showing a single person wandering into the capitol through a backdoor carrying an AR style rifle for about 15 seconds before walking out.

pjc50 5y ago

> How effective were the traditional means of removing oligarchs? Having got the joke out of the way in a sibling comment, a serious one: "Oligarch" is an oddly modern term, usually applied to Russians in the post communist era, and of course they weren't removed. Buying your way into power is highly effective. And can expand into other countries, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgeny_Lebedev https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgeny_Lebedev Prior to the modern era (20th century), even the democratic countries were only partly democratic (restricted electorates). Most were constitutional monarchs, and of course the traditional way of removing a monarch is execution. Democracy provides a way of getting rid of bad leaders without having to have violence .. but that does also rely on them acquiescing in the result.

ipaddr 5y ago
Many were removed in Russia by government force. Thrown into prison or exiled to London. Speaking of ex-powerful leaders how is Jack Ma doing?