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> It saddens me to see, time and again, the role of leadership painted in such a dire and incorrect way. It saddens me to time and again be stuck with "leaders

by zohch 5y ago

> It saddens me to see, time and again, the role of leadership painted in such a dire and incorrect way. It saddens me to time and again be stuck with "leaders" who don't know what they are talking about and think they need to weigh in on everything, even though they add negative value when they do so, because they want to justify their mostly pointless job. In a 14 year career, I have had "leadership" that is not completely horrible for about 6 months, but that I still would not call good, at best it is mediocre. If only most "leaders" were wet behind the ears instead of bordering on grossly incompetent. If people's experience of leadership is that it is almost always dead-weight, then the problem is that it is almost always dead-weight, not that people call it out for being almost always dead-weight. And by the way, I have never met one person who thought they were a good leader that was even slightly so. People who think they are good leaders are almost invariably pompous, arrogant and ignorant.

joshuamorton 5y ago
So have you met any good leaders? Or are you saying that good leaders are nearly impossible to find (and therefore perhaps the job is difficult?)
- zohch 5y ago
  > So have you met any good leaders? I have met people who lead well, but I have not met anyone who's job it was to be a leader that lead well. > Or are you saying that good leaders are nearly impossible to find (and therefore perhaps the job is difficult?) It's almost impossible to find someone that has a job of being a leader that is good leader. The job being difficult does not explain why the worst possible people end up being leaders, and it also does not mean that we should somehow not call out the phenomena that leadership is mostly feckless and adds negative value. We should call this out more often, and we should tell people who want to be leaders that they better not suck because there are enough people who suck at it, and we should let them know that going by actual outcomes, they will likely suck, and are even more likely to suck if they think they are good at it.
  - joshuamorton 5y ago
    What is good leadership, in your opinion? What makes someone's job a "leader" job, do you mean management only, or technical leadership roles as well? What is a leaders job? When you say that "leadership is feckless", do you mean the leaders you've encountered, or that having a role of official leadership or hierarchy is irresponsible or negative?
    - Aeolun 5y ago
      If leadership does not stand in the way of delivering the product, lets the devs make their own decisions, and can get the organisation above them to go along with this, they’re good leaders in my opinion.
oakfr 5y ago
Of course we have all met people who were pompous, arrogant and ignorant. But there are some good and outstanding leaders out there. If you never had the chance to meet one (or did not recognize them when they were in front of you), I am sorry for you.
- zohch 5y ago
  > But there are some good and outstanding leaders out there. There are, though they are just almost never the people who's job it is to be a leader. > If you never had the chance to meet one (or did not recognize them when they were in front of you), I am sorry for you. The worst of the worst are the "outstanding" leaders that just "did not get recognized" as such. Not even the worst part of the worst hell would be good fitting for that group.
  - oakfr 5y ago
    All that being said, I agree with you: leadership is hard. In 20 years in industry, how many (really) good leaders have I met? Three maybe. My original point is that the _role_ is a lot more interesting than what the article seems to suggest.

by zohch 5y ago

joshuamorton 5y ago

So have you met any good leaders? Or are you saying that good leaders are nearly impossible to find (and therefore perhaps the job is difficult?)

zohch 5y ago
> So have you met any good leaders? I have met people who lead well, but I have not met anyone who's job it was to be a leader that lead well. > Or are you saying that good leaders are nearly impossible to find (and therefore perhaps the job is difficult?) It's almost impossible to find someone that has a job of being a leader that is good leader. The job being difficult does not explain why the worst possible people end up being leaders, and it also does not mean that we should somehow not call out the phenomena that leadership is mostly feckless and adds negative value. We should call this out more often, and we should tell people who want to be leaders that they better not suck because there are enough people who suck at it, and we should let them know that going by actual outcomes, they will likely suck, and are even more likely to suck if they think they are good at it.
- joshuamorton 5y ago
  What is good leadership, in your opinion? What makes someone's job a "leader" job, do you mean management only, or technical leadership roles as well? What is a leaders job? When you say that "leadership is feckless", do you mean the leaders you've encountered, or that having a role of official leadership or hierarchy is irresponsible or negative?
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    If leadership does not stand in the way of delivering the product, lets the devs make their own decisions, and can get the organisation above them to go along with this, they’re good leaders in my opinion.

oakfr 5y ago

Of course we have all met people who were pompous, arrogant and ignorant. But there are some good and outstanding leaders out there. If you never had the chance to meet one (or did not recognize them when they were in front of you), I am sorry for you.

zohch 5y ago
> But there are some good and outstanding leaders out there. There are, though they are just almost never the people who's job it is to be a leader. > If you never had the chance to meet one (or did not recognize them when they were in front of you), I am sorry for you. The worst of the worst are the "outstanding" leaders that just "did not get recognized" as such. Not even the worst part of the worst hell would be good fitting for that group.
- oakfr 5y ago
  All that being said, I agree with you: leadership is hard. In 20 years in industry, how many (really) good leaders have I met? Three maybe. My original point is that the _role_ is a lot more interesting than what the article seems to suggest.