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>iOS sends the MAC addresses of nearby devices, e.g. other handsets and the home gateway, to Apple together with their GPS location. I was not aware that my lo

>iOS sends the MAC addresses of nearby devices, e.g. other handsets and the home gateway, to Apple together with their GPS location. I was not aware that my location was being tracked by other people's iPhones.

threeseed 5y ago
It isn't. Apple is sending your location and the MAC addresses of other devices your phone sees. It's been doing this for nearly a decade since I believe their acquisition of WifiSlam back in 2013. They use it roughly triangulate a device's position when GPS/Cellular is not available.
- ssss11 5y ago
  So someone else’s device, if it can see theirs, is sending their MAC to Apple. That is what they said isn’t it? Edit: he/their
- yuuu 5y ago
  Phew! What a relief that they're only sending other people's MAC addresses and not my own!
- tyingq 5y ago
  The research paper confirms it isn't sending the MAC address, but says it is sending the hardware serial number. I assume Apple has table to lookup up the MAC from the hardware serial number. So there's really no difference, is there?
  - nomel 5y ago
    Why assume that Apple keeps lookup tables like this for customer identifiable information?
    - uoaei 5y ago
      The zeroth law of cybersecurity is: If you can imagine it happening, it is safest to assume that it is already happening.
      - nomel 5y ago
        It’s unfortunate that Apple isn’t more transparent about their data retention times/policies, so imagination wouldn’t be required.
        ignoramous 5y ago
        Or... a whistleblower.
    - croon 5y ago
      We know they collect the information. Supposedly because they find it useful. How do you think they're using it?
- awsthro00945 5y ago
  The first sentence and the second sentence of your comment contradict each other. If Apple is using iPhones to pair location and MAC addresses of nearby devices, that is indeed "location being tracked by other people's iPhones".
  - bigiain 5y ago
    And Apple have clearly decided that’s ok, because that’s how AirTags work. Whether your (and everybody else) iPhone and gps helping tell where my stolen bicycle is, is a good enough benefit to outweigh the privacy trade off is a good question (that Apple never asked me before opting me into their global Bluetooth surveillance platform).
    - dpkonofa 5y ago
      They do actually ask before doing this. It's a question that you have to answer when you first updated to iOS 14 or that you answer when setting up a new iOS 15 device.
      - Shared404 5y ago
        But they never asked the non-apple users whose information is being transmitted, unless there's something I missed.
        judge2020 5y ago
        https://www.wired.com/2012/05/google-wifi-fcc-investigation/ https://www.wired.com/2012/05/google-wifi-fcc-investigation/ They weren't fined whatsoever for the collection of the data. The fine was for stonewalling the investigation. > But, the commission said, Google did not engage in illegal wiretapping because the data was flowing, unencrypted, over open radio waves. At what point does reading unencrypted radio waves on open-use frequencies become an invasion of privacy? It'd be like a restaurant owner requiring people get permission before being able to write down the restaurant's name. If it's possible to passively read it for free, you can't control who views it.
- gizdan 5y ago
  If they know my location, and other devices's MAC address, surely it stands to reason that they know those those devices's location?
- onion2k 5y ago
  They use it roughly triangulate a device's position when GPS/Cellular is not available. That's the benefit that they expose to the user. What they do with the data as well as that is only known to some people in Apple.
wodenokoto 5y ago
That’s how “find my” works. Gps connected devices are the gateway in a iOS mesh network. This is how you can triangulate those Apple key rings, that aren’t even connected to the internet.
- eddieroger 5y ago
  Close - You can know general proximity through other devices, but it won't triangulate. If you own the AirTag, you can find it more specifically based on signal strength, but with "other people's devices" you only get a general location.
- amelius 5y ago
  But apparently you can't turn it off.
  - madeofpalk 5y ago
    Source?
    - sieabahlpark 5y ago
      Best to just simply believe that it can be turned off, right?
    - TobTobXX 5y ago
      Said study: > Users have no opt out from this
    - eptcyka 5y ago
      You can turn off all of your radios as far as the soft toggle switches in your Settings app allow you to do, but if Apple decides that your radio antennas should still be active and responding to beacons, they will. And the user won't be aware. Not sure if iPhones will do this if you've explicitly disabled bluetooth, but they will send data around even when "turned off". Likewise, to actually disable bluetooth, you have to click on the toggle button in the draw-down settings screen 2 times.
- 5y ago
CountDrewku 5y ago
This it he entire basis of their airtag system.

threeseed 5y ago

It isn't. Apple is sending your location and the MAC addresses of other devices your phone sees. It's been doing this for nearly a decade since I believe their acquisition of WifiSlam back in 2013. They use it roughly triangulate a device's position when GPS/Cellular is not available.

ssss11 5y ago
So someone else’s device, if it can see theirs, is sending their MAC to Apple. That is what they said isn’t it? Edit: he/their
yuuu 5y ago
Phew! What a relief that they're only sending other people's MAC addresses and not my own!
tyingq 5y ago
The research paper confirms it isn't sending the MAC address, but says it is sending the hardware serial number. I assume Apple has table to lookup up the MAC from the hardware serial number. So there's really no difference, is there?
- nomel 5y ago
  Why assume that Apple keeps lookup tables like this for customer identifiable information?
  - uoaei 5y ago
    The zeroth law of cybersecurity is: If you can imagine it happening, it is safest to assume that it is already happening.
    - nomel 5y ago
      It’s unfortunate that Apple isn’t more transparent about their data retention times/policies, so imagination wouldn’t be required.
      - ignoramous 5y ago
        Or... a whistleblower.
  - croon 5y ago
    We know they collect the information. Supposedly because they find it useful. How do you think they're using it?
awsthro00945 5y ago
The first sentence and the second sentence of your comment contradict each other. If Apple is using iPhones to pair location and MAC addresses of nearby devices, that is indeed "location being tracked by other people's iPhones".
- bigiain 5y ago
  And Apple have clearly decided that’s ok, because that’s how AirTags work. Whether your (and everybody else) iPhone and gps helping tell where my stolen bicycle is, is a good enough benefit to outweigh the privacy trade off is a good question (that Apple never asked me before opting me into their global Bluetooth surveillance platform).
  - dpkonofa 5y ago
    They do actually ask before doing this. It's a question that you have to answer when you first updated to iOS 14 or that you answer when setting up a new iOS 15 device.
    - Shared404 5y ago
      But they never asked the non-apple users whose information is being transmitted, unless there's something I missed.
      - judge2020 5y ago
        https://www.wired.com/2012/05/google-wifi-fcc-investigation/ https://www.wired.com/2012/05/google-wifi-fcc-investigation/ They weren't fined whatsoever for the collection of the data. The fine was for stonewalling the investigation. > But, the commission said, Google did not engage in illegal wiretapping because the data was flowing, unencrypted, over open radio waves. At what point does reading unencrypted radio waves on open-use frequencies become an invasion of privacy? It'd be like a restaurant owner requiring people get permission before being able to write down the restaurant's name. If it's possible to passively read it for free, you can't control who views it.
gizdan 5y ago
If they know my location, and other devices's MAC address, surely it stands to reason that they know those those devices's location?
onion2k 5y ago
They use it roughly triangulate a device's position when GPS/Cellular is not available. That's the benefit that they expose to the user. What they do with the data as well as that is only known to some people in Apple.

wodenokoto 5y ago

That’s how “find my” works. Gps connected devices are the gateway in a iOS mesh network. This is how you can triangulate those Apple key rings, that aren’t even connected to the internet.

eddieroger 5y ago
Close - You can know general proximity through other devices, but it won't triangulate. If you own the AirTag, you can find it more specifically based on signal strength, but with "other people's devices" you only get a general location.
amelius 5y ago
But apparently you can't turn it off.
- madeofpalk 5y ago
  Source?
  - sieabahlpark 5y ago
    Best to just simply believe that it can be turned off, right?
  - TobTobXX 5y ago
    Said study: > Users have no opt out from this
  - eptcyka 5y ago
    You can turn off all of your radios as far as the soft toggle switches in your Settings app allow you to do, but if Apple decides that your radio antennas should still be active and responding to beacons, they will. And the user won't be aware. Not sure if iPhones will do this if you've explicitly disabled bluetooth, but they will send data around even when "turned off". Likewise, to actually disable bluetooth, you have to click on the toggle button in the draw-down settings screen 2 times.
5y ago

CountDrewku 5y ago

This it he entire basis of their airtag system.