4 ms·

There were reports of brain anomalies on MRI scan in "Havana Syndrome" victims. What would we make of those?

whydoibother 5y ago
Those scans showed a difference in some, but nothing that would make you conclude it is from an attack. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/07/23/743267736/brain-scans-find-differences-but-no-injury-in-u-s-diplomats-who-fell-ill-in-cuba https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/07/23/7432677...
SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
You're referring to the study in JAMA (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2738552 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2738552)? I don't claim to know with any confidence, but there are many possible confounders, so there's not necessarily anything we need to make of it if there are other reasons to believe the syndrome is psychosomatic. (For example, their control group doesn't seem to have lived in Cuba.)
cheese_van 5y ago
Sure, I don't discount the possibility of malicious attack. I cannot however discount human frailty. But in answer to your question, it would depend on the quality of the medical reports. It doesn't seem, so far, that the science can be widely replicated or is clearly pointing to maliciously directed activity. I believe there is a Canadian study that suggests exposure to chemicals. I don't know how that study has been received by peers.
- ineedasername 5y ago
  Could be prior anomalies that, themselves, contributed to the syndrome? It would be a hell of a coincidence, but not impossible.
  - cheese_van 5y ago
    Sure. In the same vein, it may be the case that once upon a time a child abduction was attempted at WalMart by guys in a white van. How that incident caused mass hysteria on Facebook is beyond my ken.
    - ineedasername 5y ago
      I thought you were being sarcastic, but giving the benefit of the doubt I looked it up, and, well... No sarcasm. That happened. Wow.
Barrin92 5y ago
there's brain anomalies in any sufficiently large sample of people, so the first thing would be to establish whether there's an usual amount of them, or you'll be fooled by randomness. Also it would be pretty weird if people who have neurological symptoms don't have brain anomalies, given that this kind of goes hand-in-hand regardless of what the cause of either one is. Migraine patients often have neurological anomalies in the brain, doesn't mean someone caused them with a laser. People who experience Havana Syndrome style symptoms might be predisposed to overreact to, in this case apparently crickets, because they have some neurological issue to begin with.
teorema 5y ago
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763415302669 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014976341... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221315821630064X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221315821...

Those scans showed a difference in some, but nothing that would make you conclude it is from an attack. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/07/23/743267736/brain-scans-find-differences-but-no-injury-in-u-s-diplomats-who-fell-ill-in-cuba https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/07/23/7432677...

SpicyLemonZest 5y ago

You're referring to the study in JAMA (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2738552 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2738552)? I don't claim to know with any confidence, but there are many possible confounders, so there's not necessarily anything we need to make of it if there are other reasons to believe the syndrome is psychosomatic. (For example, their control group doesn't seem to have lived in Cuba.)

cheese_van 5y ago

Sure, I don't discount the possibility of malicious attack. I cannot however discount human frailty. But in answer to your question, it would depend on the quality of the medical reports. It doesn't seem, so far, that the science can be widely replicated or is clearly pointing to maliciously directed activity. I believe there is a Canadian study that suggests exposure to chemicals. I don't know how that study has been received by peers.

ineedasername 5y ago
Could be prior anomalies that, themselves, contributed to the syndrome? It would be a hell of a coincidence, but not impossible.
- cheese_van 5y ago
  Sure. In the same vein, it may be the case that once upon a time a child abduction was attempted at WalMart by guys in a white van. How that incident caused mass hysteria on Facebook is beyond my ken.
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    I thought you were being sarcastic, but giving the benefit of the doubt I looked it up, and, well... No sarcasm. That happened. Wow.

Barrin92 5y ago

there's brain anomalies in any sufficiently large sample of people, so the first thing would be to establish whether there's an usual amount of them, or you'll be fooled by randomness. Also it would be pretty weird if people who have neurological symptoms don't have brain anomalies, given that this kind of goes hand-in-hand regardless of what the cause of either one is. Migraine patients often have neurological anomalies in the brain, doesn't mean someone caused them with a laser. People who experience Havana Syndrome style symptoms might be predisposed to overreact to, in this case apparently crickets, because they have some neurological issue to begin with.

teorema 5y ago

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763415302669 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014976341... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221315821630064X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221315821...