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As far as the Foreign Service experience goes, you're in a strange country where you often don't speak the language so everything is difficult. You may not be

As far as the Foreign Service experience goes, you're in a strange country where you often don't speak the language so everything is difficult. You may not be well liked, or worse, may be hated, and people may be trying to kill you. The opposition security services openly tail you wherever you go, bug your house, your telephone, and on top of that, your own CI people may be spying on you. The pressures to perform at work for Foreign Service are enormous, since (unlike the civil service), if you don't get promoted in a specific time window, you're fired. You work in a fish bowl, and cliques form mainly of effective people vs the dumb ones. It's extremely hierarchical, and if you're low on the totem pole, and you're ineffective, you're ignored and left out of the loop. Often the security services routinely surreptitiously break into your house and rearrange shit in your fridge, or other head-fuckery, just to intimidate you, and just to show they can. It's extremely difficult for people who aren't prepared for that environment. The ones that crack are usually civil servants overseas for the first time for domestic agencies like IRS, Social Security, FBI, Commerce, etc. Most larger embassies and consulates have a State Department shrink working there, for good reason. People lose their shit all the time. It's not particularly rare. Additionally, in the more difficult countries, you are essentially living with the people you work with. That can induce some particularly cruel claustrophobia. So, it's no wonder people are driven mad, either by each other, the environment or just crickets.

isaacimagine 5y ago
> Often the security services routinely surreptitiously break into your house [...] This isn't uniformly true.* I would say the newness of being in an unfamiliar place alone (e.g. 'the golden handcuffs') is enough to cause Havana-syndrome-like symptoms. * source: sample size of 1, but: grew up in the foreign service, never once observed or heard this happening to my / other families.
- cheese_van 5y ago
  No it's not. It's not rare in "criteria" countries however. And being tailed and followed is routine. It's something you grow to not care about.
  - rendall 5y ago
    Do you think it's possible this "breaking in and rearranging your refrigerator contents" could be in your head?
    - zenexer 5y ago
      They mentioned in a separate comment that it was part of the briefings, so that seems unlikely: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28738326 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28738326
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- koheripbal 5y ago
  It's routine in some major countries, like China.
ashleyn 5y ago
There were reports of brain anomalies on MRI scan in "Havana Syndrome" victims. What would we make of those?
- whydoibother 5y ago
  Those scans showed a difference in some, but nothing that would make you conclude it is from an attack. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/07/23/743267736/brain-scans-find-differences-but-no-injury-in-u-s-diplomats-who-fell-ill-in-cuba https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/07/23/7432677...
- SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
  You're referring to the study in JAMA (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2738552 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2738552)? I don't claim to know with any confidence, but there are many possible confounders, so there's not necessarily anything we need to make of it if there are other reasons to believe the syndrome is psychosomatic. (For example, their control group doesn't seem to have lived in Cuba.)
- cheese_van 5y ago
  Sure, I don't discount the possibility of malicious attack. I cannot however discount human frailty. But in answer to your question, it would depend on the quality of the medical reports. It doesn't seem, so far, that the science can be widely replicated or is clearly pointing to maliciously directed activity. I believe there is a Canadian study that suggests exposure to chemicals. I don't know how that study has been received by peers.
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    Could be prior anomalies that, themselves, contributed to the syndrome? It would be a hell of a coincidence, but not impossible.
    - cheese_van 5y ago
      Sure. In the same vein, it may be the case that once upon a time a child abduction was attempted at WalMart by guys in a white van. How that incident caused mass hysteria on Facebook is beyond my ken.
runawaybottle 5y ago
Often the security services routinely surreptitiously break into your house and rearrange shit in your fridge That sounds like horrifying gaslighting. Any evidence of this? It just feels like now days you need a camera in your private rooms (at work and at home) because god knows what kind of allegation someone can throw at you, or if the cops come and say you did some shit when you really didn’t etc. A camera connected to the cloud at all times. To your larger point, I agree that humans can crack. It doesn’t take much when you are alone and no one believes anything you are saying. Imagine someone follows you around and briefly points a laser pointer near the ground. Imagine they do this daily, just for a second. Try explaining it to to others, they’ll think you’re mad. Try explaining it to cops or a shrink. You’ll go crazy in no time. You better record every waking moment if you want to stand a chance, but by then, you’re already insane.
- cheese_van 5y ago
  Yes, I have personal experience with this. It was relatively common in Moscow, and in fact was a part of that station's (and others) security briefing. This was in '92 however, when camera surveillance equipment wasn't readily available to the public cheaply. I suppose being easily detectable that sort of fuckery is less common nowadays .
  - runawaybottle 5y ago
    That’s extremely sadistic. I fear those who can take part in something like that more so than explicit acts. Just rob the place, but don’t do demented stuff like that.
    - cheese_van 5y ago
      I don't want to give the impression that a Foreign Service career is fraught. My 30 years were gratifying and I often felt I was taking part in history, instead of merely reading about it. You're not paying for rent or utilities. Your children are provided (generally) with very good, very expensive educations going to school with children of diplomats of other countries. The pension is fantastic. It's good work if you can get it. Salaries are low initially, but as promotion kicks in, sooner or later you're making real money. My salary at retirement was a little over 160k a year, which is not bad for generic IT support. I retired at 62.
wnscooke 5y ago
Yeah, I think it’s about time to stop using that phrase, “low on the totem pole”. Remarkably ignorant and insensitive. You already even used the word “hierarchical”… we get it.
- CharlesW 5y ago
  Thanks for calling out that is considered an insensitive idiom. TIL I learned that it's factually incorrect, too.
- frupert52 5y ago
  Could you explain for those of us who remain ignorant? Not really a phrase I tend to use anyway but it would be useful to understand the additional context.

isaacimagine 5y ago

> Often the security services routinely surreptitiously break into your house [...] This isn't uniformly true.* I would say the newness of being in an unfamiliar place alone (e.g. 'the golden handcuffs') is enough to cause Havana-syndrome-like symptoms. * source: sample size of 1, but: grew up in the foreign service, never once observed or heard this happening to my / other families.

cheese_van 5y ago
No it's not. It's not rare in "criteria" countries however. And being tailed and followed is routine. It's something you grow to not care about.
- rendall 5y ago
  Do you think it's possible this "breaking in and rearranging your refrigerator contents" could be in your head?
  - zenexer 5y ago
    They mentioned in a separate comment that it was part of the briefings, so that seems unlikely: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28738326 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28738326
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
koheripbal 5y ago
It's routine in some major countries, like China.

ashleyn 5y ago

There were reports of brain anomalies on MRI scan in "Havana Syndrome" victims. What would we make of those?

whydoibother 5y ago
Those scans showed a difference in some, but nothing that would make you conclude it is from an attack. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/07/23/743267736/brain-scans-find-differences-but-no-injury-in-u-s-diplomats-who-fell-ill-in-cuba https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/07/23/7432677...
SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
You're referring to the study in JAMA (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2738552 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2738552)? I don't claim to know with any confidence, but there are many possible confounders, so there's not necessarily anything we need to make of it if there are other reasons to believe the syndrome is psychosomatic. (For example, their control group doesn't seem to have lived in Cuba.)
cheese_van 5y ago
Sure, I don't discount the possibility of malicious attack. I cannot however discount human frailty. But in answer to your question, it would depend on the quality of the medical reports. It doesn't seem, so far, that the science can be widely replicated or is clearly pointing to maliciously directed activity. I believe there is a Canadian study that suggests exposure to chemicals. I don't know how that study has been received by peers.
- ineedasername 5y ago
  Could be prior anomalies that, themselves, contributed to the syndrome? It would be a hell of a coincidence, but not impossible.
  - cheese_van 5y ago
    Sure. In the same vein, it may be the case that once upon a time a child abduction was attempted at WalMart by guys in a white van. How that incident caused mass hysteria on Facebook is beyond my ken.

runawaybottle 5y ago

Often the security services routinely surreptitiously break into your house and rearrange shit in your fridge That sounds like horrifying gaslighting. Any evidence of this? It just feels like now days you need a camera in your private rooms (at work and at home) because god knows what kind of allegation someone can throw at you, or if the cops come and say you did some shit when you really didn’t etc. A camera connected to the cloud at all times. To your larger point, I agree that humans can crack. It doesn’t take much when you are alone and no one believes anything you are saying. Imagine someone follows you around and briefly points a laser pointer near the ground. Imagine they do this daily, just for a second. Try explaining it to to others, they’ll think you’re mad. Try explaining it to cops or a shrink. You’ll go crazy in no time. You better record every waking moment if you want to stand a chance, but by then, you’re already insane.

cheese_van 5y ago
Yes, I have personal experience with this. It was relatively common in Moscow, and in fact was a part of that station's (and others) security briefing. This was in '92 however, when camera surveillance equipment wasn't readily available to the public cheaply. I suppose being easily detectable that sort of fuckery is less common nowadays .
- runawaybottle 5y ago
  That’s extremely sadistic. I fear those who can take part in something like that more so than explicit acts. Just rob the place, but don’t do demented stuff like that.
  - cheese_van 5y ago
    I don't want to give the impression that a Foreign Service career is fraught. My 30 years were gratifying and I often felt I was taking part in history, instead of merely reading about it. You're not paying for rent or utilities. Your children are provided (generally) with very good, very expensive educations going to school with children of diplomats of other countries. The pension is fantastic. It's good work if you can get it. Salaries are low initially, but as promotion kicks in, sooner or later you're making real money. My salary at retirement was a little over 160k a year, which is not bad for generic IT support. I retired at 62.

wnscooke 5y ago

Yeah, I think it’s about time to stop using that phrase, “low on the totem pole”. Remarkably ignorant and insensitive. You already even used the word “hierarchical”… we get it.

CharlesW 5y ago
Thanks for calling out that is considered an insensitive idiom. TIL I learned that it's factually incorrect, too.
frupert52 5y ago
Could you explain for those of us who remain ignorant? Not really a phrase I tend to use anyway but it would be useful to understand the additional context.