5 ms·

Economists definitely claim to know how things work. I vividly remember reading neo-liberal gospel (the economic theory, not political leaning) in the NYT opini

Economists definitely claim to know how things work. I vividly remember reading neo-liberal gospel (the economic theory, not political leaning) in the NYT opinion section written by Paul Krugman 10 years ago. Allowing completely free trade will be great he said. Prices will be lowered and the economy will run more efficiently. Maybe that’s true, but it also hollowed out the U.S. manufacturing base and consequently the middle class. You don’t see articles like that anymore.

paganel 5y ago
It was the same in Europe and things have changed, it's true, nowadays you have the US officials close to the president quoted with: > Biden official says protecting US steel a national security issue [1] on the front page of the Financial Times. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/e1f33362-2c36-4f99-9b11-7dcd82ee7c06 https://www.ft.com/content/e1f33362-2c36-4f99-9b11-7dcd82ee7...
G3rn0ti 5y ago
> Maybe that’s true, but it also hollowed out the U.S. manufacturing base and consequently the middle class. Citation needed. Edit: Just as a counter point consider reading this article: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-schiller-shrinking-middle-class-20190131-story.html https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-schiller-shrinki...
- TrispusAttucks 5y ago
  [1] China really is to blame for millions of lost U.S. manufacturing jobs, new study finds [1] https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/china-really-is-to-blame-for-millions-of-lost-us-manufacturing-jobs-new-study-finds-2018-05-14 https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/china-really-is-to-bla...
  - ItsMonkk 5y ago
    I encourage everyone who cares about this space to watch the 1994 Charlie Rose episode with Sir James Goldsmith[0]. He nailed it. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwmOkaKh3-s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwmOkaKh3-s
- naasking 5y ago
  The middle class in cities is probably doing fine. Rural areas not so much, and that's where the manufacturing base was gutted. Offshoring has had a large negative impact there and also made our supply chains more fragile as we found out during COVID. These facts are a big reason why Trump's anti-China message really resonated in those areas.
  - notfromhere 5y ago
    Cities had pretty substantial manufacturing bases before deindustrialization. Middle class in cities is shrinking, and most American cities of any notable size are split between knowledge workers and a service worker underclass. That’s why so many American cities are split between very nice neighborhoods aNd those that resemble 80s Detroit.
dls2016 5y ago
Paul Krugman actually changed his tune about this… moreover, you can find critiques of free trade being bad for workers everywhere if you look. And these critiques aren’t new: https://m.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/sanders-why-i-oppose-nafta/Content?oid=2435080 https://m.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/sanders-why-i-oppose-nafta...
- imtringued 5y ago
  Well, the problem isn't free trade. It's that some countries work more than they need to. If every country had balanced trade there wouldn't be many arguments against it.
ur-whale 5y ago
> I vividly remember reading neo-liberal gospel written by Paul Krugman Krugman is the perfect proof of the fact that the entire field of economics is populated by charlatans. His track record on predictions is worse than flipping a coin.
superMayo 5y ago
> Economists definitely claim to know how things work. Some do, most don't. Most economists are just trying to publish their work in peer reviewed journals. The one that have time to talk on mass media every weeks are not regular economist. Krugman had some great papers, but he is definitely not considered as a researcher anymore by the profession. > Allowing completely free trade will be great he said. Prices will be lowered and the economy will run more efficiently. Maybe that’s true, but it also hollowed out the U.S. manufacturing base and consequently the middle class. You don’t see articles like that anymore. The HOS model, commonly accepted in the trade literature that Krugman knows well, is very clear about the effect of free trade (even if the model could be regared as too simplistic): it lowers the prices and increases total production, however, it creates unequal gains (or even loss) within countries. The standard policy recommandation among trade economists is public polices should be aimed to losers using a fraction of gains from trade.

paganel 5y ago

It was the same in Europe and things have changed, it's true, nowadays you have the US officials close to the president quoted with: > Biden official says protecting US steel a national security issue [1] on the front page of the Financial Times. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/e1f33362-2c36-4f99-9b11-7dcd82ee7c06 https://www.ft.com/content/e1f33362-2c36-4f99-9b11-7dcd82ee7...

G3rn0ti 5y ago

> Maybe that’s true, but it also hollowed out the U.S. manufacturing base and consequently the middle class. Citation needed. Edit: Just as a counter point consider reading this article: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-schiller-shrinking-middle-class-20190131-story.html https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-schiller-shrinki...

TrispusAttucks 5y ago
[1] China really is to blame for millions of lost U.S. manufacturing jobs, new study finds [1] https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/china-really-is-to-blame-for-millions-of-lost-us-manufacturing-jobs-new-study-finds-2018-05-14 https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/china-really-is-to-bla...
- ItsMonkk 5y ago
  I encourage everyone who cares about this space to watch the 1994 Charlie Rose episode with Sir James Goldsmith[0]. He nailed it. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwmOkaKh3-s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwmOkaKh3-s
naasking 5y ago
The middle class in cities is probably doing fine. Rural areas not so much, and that's where the manufacturing base was gutted. Offshoring has had a large negative impact there and also made our supply chains more fragile as we found out during COVID. These facts are a big reason why Trump's anti-China message really resonated in those areas.
- notfromhere 5y ago
  Cities had pretty substantial manufacturing bases before deindustrialization. Middle class in cities is shrinking, and most American cities of any notable size are split between knowledge workers and a service worker underclass. That’s why so many American cities are split between very nice neighborhoods aNd those that resemble 80s Detroit.

dls2016 5y ago

Paul Krugman actually changed his tune about this… moreover, you can find critiques of free trade being bad for workers everywhere if you look. And these critiques aren’t new: https://m.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/sanders-why-i-oppose-nafta/Content?oid=2435080 https://m.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/sanders-why-i-oppose-nafta...

imtringued 5y ago
Well, the problem isn't free trade. It's that some countries work more than they need to. If every country had balanced trade there wouldn't be many arguments against it.

ur-whale 5y ago

> I vividly remember reading neo-liberal gospel written by Paul Krugman Krugman is the perfect proof of the fact that the entire field of economics is populated by charlatans. His track record on predictions is worse than flipping a coin.

superMayo 5y ago

> Economists definitely claim to know how things work. Some do, most don't. Most economists are just trying to publish their work in peer reviewed journals. The one that have time to talk on mass media every weeks are not regular economist. Krugman had some great papers, but he is definitely not considered as a researcher anymore by the profession. > Allowing completely free trade will be great he said. Prices will be lowered and the economy will run more efficiently. Maybe that’s true, but it also hollowed out the U.S. manufacturing base and consequently the middle class. You don’t see articles like that anymore. The HOS model, commonly accepted in the trade literature that Krugman knows well, is very clear about the effect of free trade (even if the model could be regared as too simplistic): it lowers the prices and increases total production, however, it creates unequal gains (or even loss) within countries. The standard policy recommandation among trade economists is public polices should be aimed to losers using a fraction of gains from trade.