9 ms·

Met Police: Run away, call 999 if you feel danger when stopped by lone officer

45 points by jakelazaroff 5y ago

jackyinger 5y ago
Woah, in the US that’d likely you get killed regardless of skin color. Any UK folks around to comment on whether this advice is actually usable there?
- tonylemesmer 5y ago
  It would probably be fine as long as you do it calmly and don’t make any crazy sudden moves. The current climate would make it even easier. But I’m not a habitual law breaker so not really into running away from cops. By ‘running away’ I take that to mean move yourself calmly to a more public / busier area rather than obviously trying to disappear into the night. Edit [I’m from the UK and offering a UK perspective. I have been accosted calmly by UK police and I have UK friends who are officers.]
  - BoorishBears 5y ago
    A pregnant woman had her car flipped with a (horribly performed) PIT maneuver after she tried to make it to an exit before pulling over.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    “Running away” is itself the rough opposite of “do[ing] it calmly and [not making] any crazy sudden moves,” at least in the eyes of the police. The idea that you can “calmly” run away from a rogue cop isn’t compatible with their expectations.
    - tonylemesmer 5y ago
      You can communicate with them as you’re doing it you know. You can shout or wave to let them know you’re aware they’re cops etc. English police and USA police are not the same.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - lovich 5y ago
    If you’re in the US at least then you are pretty much guaranteed to be a daily, habitual law breaker. You just don’t habitually get the law enforced on you
  - tonylemesmer 5y ago
    People disagreeing with my comment should realise I’m not saying that anything you could do would save you from the fate that Sarah Everard suffered. A determined rogue cop can still kill you. Anyone can kill you. The Met’s advice isn’t helpful. But moving to a busier area as briskly and unprovocatively as possible could save you.
    - lovich 5y ago
      I’m again speaking from a US perspective but there is no situation here where moving away from the police is not considered provocative from their viewpoint. I would fully expect to be choked, body slammed, and cuffed if I attempted to walk away from the cops. I live in a fairly affluent area and am not a minority and still have seen local cops do things like start screaming at people for not maintaining eye contact, or in a particular notable event an off duty not in uniform cop who ran a car off the road and pulled a gun on them for not giving them right of way in a traffic circle. If you have cops that would let you move to a safer location after they interact with you, it’s nearly unbelievable from our experiences
      - kawsper 5y ago
        There's was a deaf man in the US that got shocked with electroshock weapon for not responding to officers, https://www.npr.org/2021/09/29/1041562502/deaf-man-tased-police-colorado-lawsuit https://www.npr.org/2021/09/29/1041562502/deaf-man-tased-pol...
  - tokai 5y ago
    Even that can be deadly. One screw up in a game of Simon Says with an unhinged cop and you're dead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver
- r3trohack3r 5y ago
  At least in my home town (central Illinois), our drivers education instructor actually taught this. If you’re being pulled over in podunk nowhere, turn on your hazards, reduce your speed, and proceed to the next well populated area (I.e. gas station).
  - droidist2 5y ago
    I always was told this too but I've never had the courage to actually do it. I'd be afraid the cop would be angry and treat me more harshly when I finally do pull over. There was recently a case of a pregnant woman doing this and the police performed a PIT maneuver and flipped her car. https://www.news10.com/news/national/pregnant-woman-sues-arkansas-police-over-pit-maneuver-flips-car/ https://www.news10.com/news/national/pregnant-woman-sues-ark...
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  I think there’s a specific condition where this advice applies, FTA: "It would be extremely unusual for an officer in plain clothes to be working alone. If they are, they should be calling for assistance with other officers arriving very soon. This is standard practice.” So, don’t run away from uniformed officers, don’t run away from multiple officers. To your point, I’m reminded of Nicole Harper, whose vehicle was flipped by an officer’s pit maneuver as she continued down the road lookong for a safe place to pull off the highway, hazards flashing, just as the police department’s own “drivers license study guide” advises. https://jalopnik.com/cop-flips-pregnant-womans-while-she-tries-to-pull-over-1847062704 https://jalopnik.com/cop-flips-pregnant-womans-while-she-tri...
- willyt 5y ago
  For a well dressed white person it would be sensible advice but I’m not so sure how well it would pan out for a black guy at 3am in Tottenham or even a white kid in a shell suit in Castlemilk for that matter. You almost certainly wouldn’t be killed, but you probably would get chased and tackled to the ground and it would be up to the interpretation of the police officer, prosecutor and ultimately judge or jury as to wether it was a reasonable thing for you to do or if you were just trying to use the Everard case as an excuse.
- hnlmorg 5y ago
  I've found police in the UK are generally harder to provoke than in the US. However it only takes one bad cop having a bad day for things to go sideways fast. At risk of sparking a controversy, I do think the UKs tighter gun control laws help. It means fewer people are carrying guns and thus fewer officers need to be armed. Sure, there's still the other deterrents -- which can be nasty too. But guns can causes a situation to escalate so much faster so mostly removing that from the equation must help matters.
akudha 5y ago
I wonder if this will work in the U.S. I remember reading a story on Reddit - this woman drove half mile more (night time) before stopping for a cop, because she wanted to stop in a well lit area. He arrested her for this, even though she had done nothing else wrong.
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
  There was a case a bit ago where a cop flipped a pregnant woman’s car, even though she had turned her lights flashing and wasn’t speeding up (indicating she likely wanted to find a safe place to stop, since it was on the highway).
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - akudha 5y ago
    Fuck :( Do you know what happened to her? I’m guessing nothing happened to the cop?
    - grayhatter 5y ago
      If it's the one I know about he was fired (eventually), and she won her lawsuit for emotional distress. Thankfully she didn't file for any physical injuries. There's other similar cases with less ideal outcomes but they're not as obviously unreasonable as the popular one every one mentions.
    - jazzyjackson 5y ago
      seems the most recent article is June 24, the state is backing up the officer: “ The 15-page answer to the suit by Rutledge senior assistant attorney general Jennifer Merritt states that Dunn did nothing wrong and further asserts that he is entitled to immunity under the state and federal constitutions.” https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/jun/24/troopers-traffic-maneuver-justified-state-says-in/ https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/jun/24/troopers-tra... there is no accountability for cops in USA
no_butterscotch 5y ago
Not to be insensitive, but this advice/policy and the press around the rape-murder of the woman seem out of line. How many officers are doing this in the UK? It seems like it's gotten a lot of press because of how unusual it is. A lot more people die from everyday thugs, relatives/lovers, etc. Is making people terrified of the police good in the long run?
- helge9210 5y ago
  > How many officers are doing this in the UK? All of them? It's UK -- guilty until proven innocent.
- grayhatter 5y ago
  I'm not sure it's unreasonable for a police agency to provide guidance for people who could be afraid of the police. People who fear police have worse outcomes than thoes that dont. They have a vested interest in creating positive outcomes. Reminding people it's reasonable to run from someone in plainclothes claiming they have authority when they're making you afraid is a good idea.
- adriancr 5y ago
  It applies to plainclothes policemen... Basically a random person stopping/coming up to you and saying they're police asking for id and to search you / whatever... I've personally had an encounter like this long time ago where I just ran away, was stopped by uniformed officers a small distance away, explained I was scared and just got a thorough search / left alone. You would be wise to be afraid in situations like this, especially in dark areas. If someone asks for ID or time, light, etc, it's likely a pretense to get close enough to mug you. (see if phone is worth it, or in the past if there's money in wallet)
NelsonMinar 5y ago
Then one of the eyewitnesses identified a policeman as one of the suspects. The next night, the chief of police was on the panel. He said, "Now, girls, whatever happens, do not stop for a police officer. Stay in your car. If a police officer tries to stop you, do not stop. Keep driving and under no circumstances should you get out of your car." For a few weeks, half the traffic in L.A. was doing twice the speed limit. -- Laurie Anderson, "New Jersey Turnpike"
WastingMyTime89 5y ago
I think the article is missing some essential pieces of information. After a high profile case of a MET officer kidnapping and murdering a woman through the use of his status, the MET has decided that all plain clothes officers will work in tandem. So you should never be stopped by a lone plain clothes officer.
- baybal2 5y ago
  There should be no plainclothes officers in duty. An officer uniform should be easy to identify exactly to prevent confusion in cases like somebody being arrested in the middle of the street.
  - WastingMyTime89 5y ago
    There are legitimate cases for officers to be working plain-clothed — crowd monitoring and investigators needing to keep a low profile for example.
    - xoa 5y ago
      Do you think a potentially improved tweak to baybal2's >There should be no plainclothes officers on duty. might be "there should be no plainclothes officers with regular police arrest powers"? I agree that there are certainly cases where it's valuable to have officers working undercover. I also think there is a strong argument though that while they are in plain clothes, they should also have more restricted "plain clothes powers" more like a regular civilian. They shouldn't be able to arrest anyone or demand special recognition as police, or at least to no greater extent then what any random citizen can do in a Citizen's Arrest [0]. That could tamper a certain amount of abuse and room for mixups while still preserving the valuable investigative and monitoring aspects. Basically if they want to surrender some of the typical recognition and accountability they must also surrender some of the power that goes with it, so it's more self-regulating. Feels like a parallel with other areas of force like military, where in general legitimate combatants justified in full protection of the laws of war also must have identifiable uniforms and so on. ---- 0: Rules vary by state and country. In the US at least in general (though not all states) citizens may do arrests, but there are much stricter requirements. They need to directly witness the crime, they do not have qualified immunity and aren't entitled to the same mistakes of fact when it comes to personal liability, and are much more limited in use of force.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
thom 5y ago
One could spend a lot of time plumbing the depths of such a contemptible statement. But all I'll say is this: if your organisation is ever even tangentially party to some act of evil, don't do this. Do the other thing.
eynsham 5y ago
We should put such suggestions (and indeed so should any other jurisdiction) on a statutory footing if we are serious about them. This means, minimally— 1. use of bodycams 2. to record the furnishing of identity 3. when requested should be required before any power exercisable only by police may be used (self defence, arrests of persons in flagrante murdering people and so on are I think not really limited to police), and no offence of obstruction &c. should be committed if the requirement above is not met.
- concordDance 5y ago
  Body cams don't feel practical for undercover police. Too easily seen if they have a good view.
type_Ben_struct 5y ago
The whole chain of events that led to this advice is so sad. Rest in peace Sarah. My view is that undercover police should have a surveillance only role. Arresting or even approaching members of the public should be reserved for uniformed officers.
- wackro 5y ago
  I think the state of the police force at the moment is very much all hands on deck. Would be very expensive to have a large part of the force unable to act.
  - danenania 5y ago
    Some sort of smartphone app to scan and verify badges via a PKI might be the best solution. There isn't much to stop someone with bad intentions from impersonating an officer, uniformed or not. Every non-emergency police encounter should begin with validation.
- orwin 5y ago
  Arresting yes, but approaching and stopping IF necessary (and that mean justifying it in the report) the public should be OK. In the first world countries, we need classes to learn how to deal with state force/judicial power. I usually read a lot about "teach economics to poor famillies", but we would be better served if we understood the law and our right before 30.
strange_things 5y ago
The UK is a joke. You are not allowed to even defend yourself with more than your keys.
- HeyZuess 5y ago
  I guess the joke is on them, having one of the lowest homicide rates by firearm in the world, even knife homicides which London is famous for are lower than many major US cities.
Ajay-p 5y ago
Yes, run, make it even easier for them to wrestle you to the ground and take you away.

45 points by jakelazaroff 5y ago

Woah, in the US that’d likely you get killed regardless of skin color. Any UK folks around to comment on whether this advice is actually usable there?

tonylemesmer 5y ago
It would probably be fine as long as you do it calmly and don’t make any crazy sudden moves. The current climate would make it even easier. But I’m not a habitual law breaker so not really into running away from cops. By ‘running away’ I take that to mean move yourself calmly to a more public / busier area rather than obviously trying to disappear into the night. Edit [I’m from the UK and offering a UK perspective. I have been accosted calmly by UK police and I have UK friends who are officers.]
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  A pregnant woman had her car flipped with a (horribly performed) PIT maneuver after she tried to make it to an exit before pulling over.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  “Running away” is itself the rough opposite of “do[ing] it calmly and [not making] any crazy sudden moves,” at least in the eyes of the police. The idea that you can “calmly” run away from a rogue cop isn’t compatible with their expectations.
  - tonylemesmer 5y ago
    You can communicate with them as you’re doing it you know. You can shout or wave to let them know you’re aware they’re cops etc. English police and USA police are not the same.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- lovich 5y ago
  If you’re in the US at least then you are pretty much guaranteed to be a daily, habitual law breaker. You just don’t habitually get the law enforced on you
- tonylemesmer 5y ago
  People disagreeing with my comment should realise I’m not saying that anything you could do would save you from the fate that Sarah Everard suffered. A determined rogue cop can still kill you. Anyone can kill you. The Met’s advice isn’t helpful. But moving to a busier area as briskly and unprovocatively as possible could save you.
  - lovich 5y ago
    I’m again speaking from a US perspective but there is no situation here where moving away from the police is not considered provocative from their viewpoint. I would fully expect to be choked, body slammed, and cuffed if I attempted to walk away from the cops. I live in a fairly affluent area and am not a minority and still have seen local cops do things like start screaming at people for not maintaining eye contact, or in a particular notable event an off duty not in uniform cop who ran a car off the road and pulled a gun on them for not giving them right of way in a traffic circle. If you have cops that would let you move to a safer location after they interact with you, it’s nearly unbelievable from our experiences
    - kawsper 5y ago
      There's was a deaf man in the US that got shocked with electroshock weapon for not responding to officers, https://www.npr.org/2021/09/29/1041562502/deaf-man-tased-police-colorado-lawsuit https://www.npr.org/2021/09/29/1041562502/deaf-man-tased-pol...
- tokai 5y ago
  Even that can be deadly. One screw up in a game of Simon Says with an unhinged cop and you're dead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver
r3trohack3r 5y ago
At least in my home town (central Illinois), our drivers education instructor actually taught this. If you’re being pulled over in podunk nowhere, turn on your hazards, reduce your speed, and proceed to the next well populated area (I.e. gas station).
- droidist2 5y ago
  I always was told this too but I've never had the courage to actually do it. I'd be afraid the cop would be angry and treat me more harshly when I finally do pull over. There was recently a case of a pregnant woman doing this and the police performed a PIT maneuver and flipped her car. https://www.news10.com/news/national/pregnant-woman-sues-arkansas-police-over-pit-maneuver-flips-car/ https://www.news10.com/news/national/pregnant-woman-sues-ark...
jazzyjackson 5y ago
I think there’s a specific condition where this advice applies, FTA: "It would be extremely unusual for an officer in plain clothes to be working alone. If they are, they should be calling for assistance with other officers arriving very soon. This is standard practice.” So, don’t run away from uniformed officers, don’t run away from multiple officers. To your point, I’m reminded of Nicole Harper, whose vehicle was flipped by an officer’s pit maneuver as she continued down the road lookong for a safe place to pull off the highway, hazards flashing, just as the police department’s own “drivers license study guide” advises. https://jalopnik.com/cop-flips-pregnant-womans-while-she-tries-to-pull-over-1847062704 https://jalopnik.com/cop-flips-pregnant-womans-while-she-tri...
willyt 5y ago
For a well dressed white person it would be sensible advice but I’m not so sure how well it would pan out for a black guy at 3am in Tottenham or even a white kid in a shell suit in Castlemilk for that matter. You almost certainly wouldn’t be killed, but you probably would get chased and tackled to the ground and it would be up to the interpretation of the police officer, prosecutor and ultimately judge or jury as to wether it was a reasonable thing for you to do or if you were just trying to use the Everard case as an excuse.
hnlmorg 5y ago
I've found police in the UK are generally harder to provoke than in the US. However it only takes one bad cop having a bad day for things to go sideways fast. At risk of sparking a controversy, I do think the UKs tighter gun control laws help. It means fewer people are carrying guns and thus fewer officers need to be armed. Sure, there's still the other deterrents -- which can be nasty too. But guns can causes a situation to escalate so much faster so mostly removing that from the equation must help matters.

akudha 5y ago

I wonder if this will work in the U.S. I remember reading a story on Reddit - this woman drove half mile more (night time) before stopping for a cop, because she wanted to stop in a well lit area. He arrested her for this, even though she had done nothing else wrong.

SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
There was a case a bit ago where a cop flipped a pregnant woman’s car, even though she had turned her lights flashing and wasn’t speeding up (indicating she likely wanted to find a safe place to stop, since it was on the highway).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- akudha 5y ago
  Fuck :( Do you know what happened to her? I’m guessing nothing happened to the cop?
  - grayhatter 5y ago
    If it's the one I know about he was fired (eventually), and she won her lawsuit for emotional distress. Thankfully she didn't file for any physical injuries. There's other similar cases with less ideal outcomes but they're not as obviously unreasonable as the popular one every one mentions.
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    seems the most recent article is June 24, the state is backing up the officer: “ The 15-page answer to the suit by Rutledge senior assistant attorney general Jennifer Merritt states that Dunn did nothing wrong and further asserts that he is entitled to immunity under the state and federal constitutions.” https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/jun/24/troopers-traffic-maneuver-justified-state-says-in/ https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/jun/24/troopers-tra... there is no accountability for cops in USA

no_butterscotch 5y ago

Not to be insensitive, but this advice/policy and the press around the rape-murder of the woman seem out of line. How many officers are doing this in the UK? It seems like it's gotten a lot of press because of how unusual it is. A lot more people die from everyday thugs, relatives/lovers, etc. Is making people terrified of the police good in the long run?

helge9210 5y ago
> How many officers are doing this in the UK? All of them? It's UK -- guilty until proven innocent.
grayhatter 5y ago
I'm not sure it's unreasonable for a police agency to provide guidance for people who could be afraid of the police. People who fear police have worse outcomes than thoes that dont. They have a vested interest in creating positive outcomes. Reminding people it's reasonable to run from someone in plainclothes claiming they have authority when they're making you afraid is a good idea.
adriancr 5y ago
It applies to plainclothes policemen... Basically a random person stopping/coming up to you and saying they're police asking for id and to search you / whatever... I've personally had an encounter like this long time ago where I just ran away, was stopped by uniformed officers a small distance away, explained I was scared and just got a thorough search / left alone. You would be wise to be afraid in situations like this, especially in dark areas. If someone asks for ID or time, light, etc, it's likely a pretense to get close enough to mug you. (see if phone is worth it, or in the past if there's money in wallet)

NelsonMinar 5y ago

Then one of the eyewitnesses identified a policeman as one of the suspects. The next night, the chief of police was on the panel. He said, "Now, girls, whatever happens, do not stop for a police officer. Stay in your car. If a police officer tries to stop you, do not stop. Keep driving and under no circumstances should you get out of your car." For a few weeks, half the traffic in L.A. was doing twice the speed limit. -- Laurie Anderson, "New Jersey Turnpike"

WastingMyTime89 5y ago

I think the article is missing some essential pieces of information. After a high profile case of a MET officer kidnapping and murdering a woman through the use of his status, the MET has decided that all plain clothes officers will work in tandem. So you should never be stopped by a lone plain clothes officer.

baybal2 5y ago
There should be no plainclothes officers in duty. An officer uniform should be easy to identify exactly to prevent confusion in cases like somebody being arrested in the middle of the street.
- WastingMyTime89 5y ago
  There are legitimate cases for officers to be working plain-clothed — crowd monitoring and investigators needing to keep a low profile for example.
  - xoa 5y ago
    Do you think a potentially improved tweak to baybal2's >There should be no plainclothes officers on duty. might be "there should be no plainclothes officers with regular police arrest powers"? I agree that there are certainly cases where it's valuable to have officers working undercover. I also think there is a strong argument though that while they are in plain clothes, they should also have more restricted "plain clothes powers" more like a regular civilian. They shouldn't be able to arrest anyone or demand special recognition as police, or at least to no greater extent then what any random citizen can do in a Citizen's Arrest [0]. That could tamper a certain amount of abuse and room for mixups while still preserving the valuable investigative and monitoring aspects. Basically if they want to surrender some of the typical recognition and accountability they must also surrender some of the power that goes with it, so it's more self-regulating. Feels like a parallel with other areas of force like military, where in general legitimate combatants justified in full protection of the laws of war also must have identifiable uniforms and so on. ---- 0: Rules vary by state and country. In the US at least in general (though not all states) citizens may do arrests, but there are much stricter requirements. They need to directly witness the crime, they do not have qualified immunity and aren't entitled to the same mistakes of fact when it comes to personal liability, and are much more limited in use of force.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

thom 5y ago

One could spend a lot of time plumbing the depths of such a contemptible statement. But all I'll say is this: if your organisation is ever even tangentially party to some act of evil, don't do this. Do the other thing.

eynsham 5y ago

We should put such suggestions (and indeed so should any other jurisdiction) on a statutory footing if we are serious about them. This means, minimally— 1. use of bodycams 2. to record the furnishing of identity 3. when requested should be required before any power exercisable only by police may be used (self defence, arrests of persons in flagrante murdering people and so on are I think not really limited to police), and no offence of obstruction &c. should be committed if the requirement above is not met.

concordDance 5y ago
Body cams don't feel practical for undercover police. Too easily seen if they have a good view.

type_Ben_struct 5y ago

The whole chain of events that led to this advice is so sad. Rest in peace Sarah. My view is that undercover police should have a surveillance only role. Arresting or even approaching members of the public should be reserved for uniformed officers.

wackro 5y ago
I think the state of the police force at the moment is very much all hands on deck. Would be very expensive to have a large part of the force unable to act.
- danenania 5y ago
  Some sort of smartphone app to scan and verify badges via a PKI might be the best solution. There isn't much to stop someone with bad intentions from impersonating an officer, uniformed or not. Every non-emergency police encounter should begin with validation.
orwin 5y ago
Arresting yes, but approaching and stopping IF necessary (and that mean justifying it in the report) the public should be OK. In the first world countries, we need classes to learn how to deal with state force/judicial power. I usually read a lot about "teach economics to poor famillies", but we would be better served if we understood the law and our right before 30.

strange_things 5y ago

The UK is a joke. You are not allowed to even defend yourself with more than your keys.

HeyZuess 5y ago
I guess the joke is on them, having one of the lowest homicide rates by firearm in the world, even knife homicides which London is famous for are lower than many major US cities.

Ajay-p 5y ago

Yes, run, make it even easier for them to wrestle you to the ground and take you away.