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I always adored the idea of recycling dead flesh instead of preserving it the way it's commonly done but there is a danger to consider: prions - they can get in

I always adored the idea of recycling dead flesh instead of preserving it the way it's commonly done but there is a danger to consider: prions - they can get into the soil, then into the plants and then into the animals.

tw04 5y ago
Seems like that should be pretty easy to stop. Birnessite can break down prions[1] and isn't particularly rare (assuming they don't already account for that). [1] https://news.wisc.edu/common-soil-mineral-degrades-the-nearly-indestructible-prion/ https://news.wisc.edu/common-soil-mineral-degrades-the-nearl...
- Confiks 5y ago
  Beware of overly optimistic university press releases. It's hopeful, but certainly not a panacea. In fact, it's not clear if it will work at all. From your link: "The new study (...) was conducted on prions in solution in the laboratory". "The next step (...) is to mix the mineral with contaminated soil to see if it has the same effect". "I expect that its efficacy would be somewhat diminished in soil".
  - matthewdgreen 5y ago
    A similar conversation took place on HN a few months ago, and a few experts pointed out that a small mutation rendered sheep (I think) totally immune to some common prion disease that was universally fatal to sheep without the mutation. Without being able to find the citation at this moment, it made me much less concerned about the possibility of prions becoming an intractable problem that wipes out all complex life.
robbrown451 5y ago
This suggests composting (mostly) inactivates prions: https://cen.acs.org/articles/92/web/2014/05/Composting-Offer-Low-Cost-Way.html https://cen.acs.org/articles/92/web/2014/05/Composting-Offer...
amatecha 5y ago
Wow, well that was a thing I didn't know about. Cool, yet another disturbing way nature wants to make things terrible for me, haha :( Two "fun" excerpts from the Wikipedia page about Prions[0]: > Experimental evidence shows that unbound prions degrade over time, while soil-bound prions remain at stable or increasing levels, suggesting that prions likely accumulate in the environment > It is thus possible that there is a progressively accumulating number of prions in the environment. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion
jillesvangurp 5y ago
Prions are a minor risk when you eat them. So, maybe don't grow tomatoes on the grave of your loved ones. Though, I suspect that would actually be perfectly safe since plants don't tend to pass other pathogens despite what we feed them (i.e. manure). Otherwise, composting is the most natural thing there is. Absolutely everything in nature dies, and mostly does not get embalmed, cremated, etc. Which is another way of saying it composts and gets recycled back into living stuff; some of which ends up in our food chain. Things like proteins are broken down in the process. And that would include prions. So, absolutely nothing wrong with composting the remains of people. It's a nice ecological alternative to carbon intensive cremation processes or having a lot of nasty embalming fluids dumped into the local environment (which is where it ends up after the body eventually decomposes anyway). Not judging here; but I appreciate people making different choices and being somewhat conscious about not burdening the environment with their corpses any more than is strictly necessary.
- dogorman 5y ago
  I'd guess tomatoes are fine. I'd definitely think twice before eating carrots or potatoes from such a garden though, even washed and pealed thoroughly (and normally I wouldn't peal those.)
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Embalming always seemed ridiculous to me.
  - Koshkin 5y ago
    Wasn't this merely part of a religious ritual?
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      My understanding is it was a moneymaker for the morticians, who managed to get laws passed requiring it.
      - 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tsimionescu 5y ago
I don't think that's a major problem, as prions are as old as life as far as we know and have not been the source of major problems, with the only known exceptions being caused by widespread cannibalism (such as a few villages or the cow-based cow diets). In fact, one of the oldest organized religions in the world, Zoroastrianism (the religion of ancient Persian empire) disposes of their dead by putting them atop Towers of Silence [0] to be eaten by vultures, which has not been any source of problems as far as I know. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Silence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Silence
- gremloni 5y ago
  I don’t think this works. No one eats the vultures so it would be hard for the prions to make it back to humans.
  - CameronNemo 5y ago
    But have vultures shown evidence of neurodegenerative disease? Do they have adaptations that prevent it because of how much animal flesh they eat?
    - gremloni 5y ago
      It’s a good question but I doubt anyone has studied the vultures of the fire temples of Iran or India for neurodegenerative diseases.
      - Igelau 5y ago
        I doubt prions can withstand vulture stomach acid.
        yial 5y ago
        An acquaintance of mine was flying an ultralight, and decided to fly too close to some vultures. I didn’t know this - but apparently if they think they are being chased they will vomit… Some of it flew back onto him. He said the smell almost made him crash!
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
The safe and hygienic disposal of corpses is relatively new in human civilization and we're still here.

tw04 5y ago

Seems like that should be pretty easy to stop. Birnessite can break down prions[1] and isn't particularly rare (assuming they don't already account for that). [1] https://news.wisc.edu/common-soil-mineral-degrades-the-nearly-indestructible-prion/ https://news.wisc.edu/common-soil-mineral-degrades-the-nearl...

Confiks 5y ago
Beware of overly optimistic university press releases. It's hopeful, but certainly not a panacea. In fact, it's not clear if it will work at all. From your link: "The new study (...) was conducted on prions in solution in the laboratory". "The next step (...) is to mix the mineral with contaminated soil to see if it has the same effect". "I expect that its efficacy would be somewhat diminished in soil".
- matthewdgreen 5y ago
  A similar conversation took place on HN a few months ago, and a few experts pointed out that a small mutation rendered sheep (I think) totally immune to some common prion disease that was universally fatal to sheep without the mutation. Without being able to find the citation at this moment, it made me much less concerned about the possibility of prions becoming an intractable problem that wipes out all complex life.

robbrown451 5y ago

This suggests composting (mostly) inactivates prions: https://cen.acs.org/articles/92/web/2014/05/Composting-Offer-Low-Cost-Way.html https://cen.acs.org/articles/92/web/2014/05/Composting-Offer...

amatecha 5y ago

Wow, well that was a thing I didn't know about. Cool, yet another disturbing way nature wants to make things terrible for me, haha :( Two "fun" excerpts from the Wikipedia page about Prions[0]: > Experimental evidence shows that unbound prions degrade over time, while soil-bound prions remain at stable or increasing levels, suggesting that prions likely accumulate in the environment > It is thus possible that there is a progressively accumulating number of prions in the environment. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion

jillesvangurp 5y ago

Prions are a minor risk when you eat them. So, maybe don't grow tomatoes on the grave of your loved ones. Though, I suspect that would actually be perfectly safe since plants don't tend to pass other pathogens despite what we feed them (i.e. manure). Otherwise, composting is the most natural thing there is. Absolutely everything in nature dies, and mostly does not get embalmed, cremated, etc. Which is another way of saying it composts and gets recycled back into living stuff; some of which ends up in our food chain. Things like proteins are broken down in the process. And that would include prions. So, absolutely nothing wrong with composting the remains of people. It's a nice ecological alternative to carbon intensive cremation processes or having a lot of nasty embalming fluids dumped into the local environment (which is where it ends up after the body eventually decomposes anyway). Not judging here; but I appreciate people making different choices and being somewhat conscious about not burdening the environment with their corpses any more than is strictly necessary.

dogorman 5y ago
I'd guess tomatoes are fine. I'd definitely think twice before eating carrots or potatoes from such a garden though, even washed and pealed thoroughly (and normally I wouldn't peal those.)
WalterBright 5y ago
Embalming always seemed ridiculous to me.
- Koshkin 5y ago
  Wasn't this merely part of a religious ritual?
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    My understanding is it was a moneymaker for the morticians, who managed to get laws passed requiring it.
    - 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

tsimionescu 5y ago

I don't think that's a major problem, as prions are as old as life as far as we know and have not been the source of major problems, with the only known exceptions being caused by widespread cannibalism (such as a few villages or the cow-based cow diets). In fact, one of the oldest organized religions in the world, Zoroastrianism (the religion of ancient Persian empire) disposes of their dead by putting them atop Towers of Silence [0] to be eaten by vultures, which has not been any source of problems as far as I know. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Silence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Silence

gremloni 5y ago
I don’t think this works. No one eats the vultures so it would be hard for the prions to make it back to humans.
- CameronNemo 5y ago
  But have vultures shown evidence of neurodegenerative disease? Do they have adaptations that prevent it because of how much animal flesh they eat?
  - gremloni 5y ago
    It’s a good question but I doubt anyone has studied the vultures of the fire temples of Iran or India for neurodegenerative diseases.
    - Igelau 5y ago
      I doubt prions can withstand vulture stomach acid.
      - yial 5y ago
        An acquaintance of mine was flying an ultralight, and decided to fly too close to some vultures. I didn’t know this - but apparently if they think they are being chased they will vomit… Some of it flew back onto him. He said the smell almost made him crash!

MomoXenosaga 5y ago

The safe and hygienic disposal of corpses is relatively new in human civilization and we're still here.