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I think this is a big difference between US and EU. In EU we like to joke around, tease each other, and not get fired over that. When we tell a sexist joke wi

I think this is a big difference between US and EU. In EU we like to joke around, tease each other, and not get fired over that. When we tell a sexist joke with a woman present, you will get a witty reply from them, not a call to HR. I hope this US bullshit stays in US. Seems that EU women are not victims but can stand their own ground.

koonsolo 5y ago
Haha, thanks for the downvotes. Let's see what happens when EU is awake.
- DonHopkins 5y ago
  Thanks for choosing this hill to die on. Now we know what kind of person you are. In case English isn't your first language: https://grammarist.com/idiom/the-hill-you-want-to-die-on https://grammarist.com/idiom/the-hill-you-want-to-die-on
maccolgan 5y ago
I have bad news, they are not going to keep it to the US.
thriftwy 5y ago
I think the best update to that CoC will be kindly asking any person from the USofA to not participate. The rest of the document may be left in any state. Most of problems with harrasment and reactions to it would disappear overnight. The USA does not dominate the contributions anymore, but it does absolutely dwarf anybody else when it comes to shitstorms.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  Developers in USA earn more, thus they are automatically privileged group, despite their other protected attributes. Thus they can not be harassed. A logic we should apply. It only seems fine to tie it all to moneny.
rich_sasha 5y ago
I think I'm realising this might be a bit of a male point of view (European here). Sometimes women put up because they feel they have to. But I agree with the general point. Banter is banter, jokes are jokes. Boundaries are boundaries. Jokes around "haha women are less smart and do the dishes" are not OK. A joke about moving your birthday because you're a woman, not so funny but wow so not sexist. "Be nice" is the long forgotten good rule of Internet behaviour, and "if you meant to be nice but weren't, apologise" a close second.
- tomp 5y ago
  Surely as long as social conventions such as “don’t ask women for their age” persist, such topics should be considered fair game for jokes? Otherwise, we enter the field of “elective equality” - “equality where it benefits me, favoritism elsewhere”.
  - rich_sasha 5y ago
    Well I’m saying that this joke shouldn’t, in my books, count as sexist. I’m just saying it’s not that funny, or overly tasteful. Like documenting a “shrink” function with “men won’t use it for fear of having their willies shrunk”. If you’re making a joke about something, make it more funny than offensive. A very unfunny joke has a low tolerance on offence :)
    - tomp 5y ago
      Probably depends on the person. I personally love offensive jokes. Book of Mormon is one of my favourite shows, and I can't really think of a group/sect/principle they don't offend.
      - rich_sasha 5y ago
        OK well there you go, it's more funny than offensive (at least to you). That's "fine" I think. If the person you offend laughs as opposed to being angry, it can't be that bad.
interactivecode 5y ago
Seems more like you knowing it's a sexist joke should be enough reasons not to make it. I sincerely hope you agree that intentional bigotry has no place anywhere. It's sexist regardless if woman are present. People are victims even if they stand their ground.
- cybrox 5y ago
  Every joke relates to something or someone who is potentially offended by it. By this logic, you have to ban humor.
  - watwut 5y ago
    So lets start making white men jokes in those teams on the regular. And no, in real life, I did not seen all that many of those. There is situation in which everyone mocks everyone. But the situation described here is that some people are valid target of jokes and others simply dont.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      It's really hard to generalize a group on that level unless you're on the outside looking in. There's plenty of jokes about man-bun and skinny jean wearing hipsters floating around. There's plenty of jokes about white trash floating around. I'm not sure what a joke about white dudes in general is going to look like barring the obvious case where you generalize a joke about white trash or hipsters to all of them. It's going to be very hard for a group of mostly white dudes to joke effectivly about white dudes because as members of that group they all see that group in higher resolution than that.
    - _dain_ 5y ago
      What do you mean, "start"? The Twitter feeds of leftist tech people are full of jokes where white men are the punchline.
    - odshoifsdhfs 5y ago
      I think this may depend a lot in which European country. UK is absolutely filled with self deprecating humour no matter your race or sex. I am currently at an hotel with an international audience and was part of the daily 'show' a couple days ago. I made the entire audience laugh when I joked about not knowing how to sexually satisfy a woman (I am a white man if it helps). Think it depends a lot on the general tone. Are women targeted for sexist jokes as much as men and the jokes are free for all? Probably ok. If 95% of the sexist jokes are about women, probably not ok. But for example, I found that a lot of Eastern European men make sexists jokes that are mean and at the same time, can't take the smallest joke about themselves (or worse, their own sexuality). Context and culture matters.
krageon 5y ago
> you will get a witty reply from them, not a call to HR. This depends heavily on where you work. It is not healthy for your career to assume this.
watwut 5y ago
> When we tell a sexist joke with a woman present, you will get a witty reply from them, not a call to HR. As a woman working in Europe, those sexist jokes sux. It sux to be in a team where you have to listen to it in the regular. It is tiring to have to be constantly prepared with "witty replies", just because collogues are dicks and need to pick on my gender. Yes, I tell them off or am witty depending on what I think harms me the least of the two. But the situation itself sux. Working in teams where I dont have to be on guard and dont have to waste time strategizing this is so much better. It also sux that quite a few people really do want the message behind the joke to be true. Whether they fully believe or sorta kinda believe.
- mpfundstein 5y ago
  s/sux/sucks
  - reuben364 5y ago
    s/^.*$/
  - pelasaco 5y ago
    that's mansplaining /s
DonHopkins 5y ago
>Seems that EU women are not victims but can stand their own ground. So you're saying that US woman are victims and can't stand their ground, and if any of them are present it's their responsibility to make witty replies, instead of the men present calling out the person who made the sexist remark regardless of whether or not there are any women present. The great thing about these discussions is that the sexist pigs come out of the shadows and chose this hill to die on, so now we all know who they are. https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=calvinmorrison https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=calvinmorrison >i write for shock value, if you are shocked, thank you!
ksec 5y ago
>I hope this US bullshit stays in US. It has been spreading to all corners of English Speaking Countries although mostly in Tech ( for Now ) and Open Source. There are many signs it is growing in EU as well.
dnh44 5y ago
Here is a little hint. These women don't think you're funny. They are humouring you. Most likely they've heard all the jokes before and they think you're boring at best or an asshole at worst. Imagine for a moment that your name was Seymour Butts and then imagine how bored you'd feel by the people that continued to make the same lame jokes about your name, as adults in a professional environment.
- koonsolo 5y ago
  Is that why they always sit at the "funny guys" table during lunch?
  - dnh44 5y ago
    Maybe the other option is the "creepy guys" table? All joking aside I can only comment very generally obviously, but just because people will tolerate a particular aspect of someones personality doesn't mean they actually enjoy it. Remember that 30 years ago in the Western world lots of women got patted on the ass at work and the normal response was to nod and smile because that's just how the world was. I once met someone in Australia whose best friends all called him some racial slur as a nickname (I forget which one now). In a short moment alone I asked him if that was actually okay for him and he answered "No, but that's just the way people are around here." I obviously have no way of knowing how close you are to these women but you should probably at least be open to the possibility that there is a similar dynamic at play here. Personally, I have a unique physical characteristic that causes even strangers to approach to comment or joke about. I've got a pretty good catalogue of witty retorts by now and one of them in particular is so spectacular that I quite enjoy the opportunity to use it. I still think the people who make the jokes are boring idiots though.
    - koonsolo 5y ago
      The jokes need to be funny of course, not just sexist remarks. You also have to know to whom you can say what. My close friends at work can be very brutal, and I return the favor ;). But you cannot do that to casual colleagues, or people you know that don't like such things. My best friend is 2m tall, so I also know all those jokes. But that doesn't stop us from annoying him now and then :D.

koonsolo 5y ago

Haha, thanks for the downvotes. Let's see what happens when EU is awake.

DonHopkins 5y ago
Thanks for choosing this hill to die on. Now we know what kind of person you are. In case English isn't your first language: https://grammarist.com/idiom/the-hill-you-want-to-die-on https://grammarist.com/idiom/the-hill-you-want-to-die-on

maccolgan 5y ago

I have bad news, they are not going to keep it to the US.

thriftwy 5y ago

I think the best update to that CoC will be kindly asking any person from the USofA to not participate. The rest of the document may be left in any state. Most of problems with harrasment and reactions to it would disappear overnight. The USA does not dominate the contributions anymore, but it does absolutely dwarf anybody else when it comes to shitstorms.

Ekaros 5y ago
Developers in USA earn more, thus they are automatically privileged group, despite their other protected attributes. Thus they can not be harassed. A logic we should apply. It only seems fine to tie it all to moneny.

rich_sasha 5y ago

I think I'm realising this might be a bit of a male point of view (European here). Sometimes women put up because they feel they have to. But I agree with the general point. Banter is banter, jokes are jokes. Boundaries are boundaries. Jokes around "haha women are less smart and do the dishes" are not OK. A joke about moving your birthday because you're a woman, not so funny but wow so not sexist. "Be nice" is the long forgotten good rule of Internet behaviour, and "if you meant to be nice but weren't, apologise" a close second.

tomp 5y ago
Surely as long as social conventions such as “don’t ask women for their age” persist, such topics should be considered fair game for jokes? Otherwise, we enter the field of “elective equality” - “equality where it benefits me, favoritism elsewhere”.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  Well I’m saying that this joke shouldn’t, in my books, count as sexist. I’m just saying it’s not that funny, or overly tasteful. Like documenting a “shrink” function with “men won’t use it for fear of having their willies shrunk”. If you’re making a joke about something, make it more funny than offensive. A very unfunny joke has a low tolerance on offence :)
  - tomp 5y ago
    Probably depends on the person. I personally love offensive jokes. Book of Mormon is one of my favourite shows, and I can't really think of a group/sect/principle they don't offend.
    - rich_sasha 5y ago
      OK well there you go, it's more funny than offensive (at least to you). That's "fine" I think. If the person you offend laughs as opposed to being angry, it can't be that bad.

interactivecode 5y ago

Seems more like you knowing it's a sexist joke should be enough reasons not to make it. I sincerely hope you agree that intentional bigotry has no place anywhere. It's sexist regardless if woman are present. People are victims even if they stand their ground.

cybrox 5y ago
Every joke relates to something or someone who is potentially offended by it. By this logic, you have to ban humor.
- watwut 5y ago
  So lets start making white men jokes in those teams on the regular. And no, in real life, I did not seen all that many of those. There is situation in which everyone mocks everyone. But the situation described here is that some people are valid target of jokes and others simply dont.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    It's really hard to generalize a group on that level unless you're on the outside looking in. There's plenty of jokes about man-bun and skinny jean wearing hipsters floating around. There's plenty of jokes about white trash floating around. I'm not sure what a joke about white dudes in general is going to look like barring the obvious case where you generalize a joke about white trash or hipsters to all of them. It's going to be very hard for a group of mostly white dudes to joke effectivly about white dudes because as members of that group they all see that group in higher resolution than that.
  - _dain_ 5y ago
    What do you mean, "start"? The Twitter feeds of leftist tech people are full of jokes where white men are the punchline.
  - odshoifsdhfs 5y ago
    I think this may depend a lot in which European country. UK is absolutely filled with self deprecating humour no matter your race or sex. I am currently at an hotel with an international audience and was part of the daily 'show' a couple days ago. I made the entire audience laugh when I joked about not knowing how to sexually satisfy a woman (I am a white man if it helps). Think it depends a lot on the general tone. Are women targeted for sexist jokes as much as men and the jokes are free for all? Probably ok. If 95% of the sexist jokes are about women, probably not ok. But for example, I found that a lot of Eastern European men make sexists jokes that are mean and at the same time, can't take the smallest joke about themselves (or worse, their own sexuality). Context and culture matters.

krageon 5y ago

> you will get a witty reply from them, not a call to HR. This depends heavily on where you work. It is not healthy for your career to assume this.

watwut 5y ago

> When we tell a sexist joke with a woman present, you will get a witty reply from them, not a call to HR. As a woman working in Europe, those sexist jokes sux. It sux to be in a team where you have to listen to it in the regular. It is tiring to have to be constantly prepared with "witty replies", just because collogues are dicks and need to pick on my gender. Yes, I tell them off or am witty depending on what I think harms me the least of the two. But the situation itself sux. Working in teams where I dont have to be on guard and dont have to waste time strategizing this is so much better. It also sux that quite a few people really do want the message behind the joke to be true. Whether they fully believe or sorta kinda believe.

mpfundstein 5y ago
s/sux/sucks
- reuben364 5y ago
  s/^.*$/
- pelasaco 5y ago
  that's mansplaining /s

DonHopkins 5y ago

>Seems that EU women are not victims but can stand their own ground. So you're saying that US woman are victims and can't stand their ground, and if any of them are present it's their responsibility to make witty replies, instead of the men present calling out the person who made the sexist remark regardless of whether or not there are any women present. The great thing about these discussions is that the sexist pigs come out of the shadows and chose this hill to die on, so now we all know who they are. https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=calvinmorrison https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=calvinmorrison >i write for shock value, if you are shocked, thank you!

ksec 5y ago

>I hope this US bullshit stays in US. It has been spreading to all corners of English Speaking Countries although mostly in Tech ( for Now ) and Open Source. There are many signs it is growing in EU as well.

dnh44 5y ago

Here is a little hint. These women don't think you're funny. They are humouring you. Most likely they've heard all the jokes before and they think you're boring at best or an asshole at worst. Imagine for a moment that your name was Seymour Butts and then imagine how bored you'd feel by the people that continued to make the same lame jokes about your name, as adults in a professional environment.

koonsolo 5y ago
Is that why they always sit at the "funny guys" table during lunch?
- dnh44 5y ago
  Maybe the other option is the "creepy guys" table? All joking aside I can only comment very generally obviously, but just because people will tolerate a particular aspect of someones personality doesn't mean they actually enjoy it. Remember that 30 years ago in the Western world lots of women got patted on the ass at work and the normal response was to nod and smile because that's just how the world was. I once met someone in Australia whose best friends all called him some racial slur as a nickname (I forget which one now). In a short moment alone I asked him if that was actually okay for him and he answered "No, but that's just the way people are around here." I obviously have no way of knowing how close you are to these women but you should probably at least be open to the possibility that there is a similar dynamic at play here. Personally, I have a unique physical characteristic that causes even strangers to approach to comment or joke about. I've got a pretty good catalogue of witty retorts by now and one of them in particular is so spectacular that I quite enjoy the opportunity to use it. I still think the people who make the jokes are boring idiots though.
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    The jokes need to be funny of course, not just sexist remarks. You also have to know to whom you can say what. My close friends at work can be very brutal, and I return the favor ;). But you cannot do that to casual colleagues, or people you know that don't like such things. My best friend is 2m tall, so I also know all those jokes. But that doesn't stop us from annoying him now and then :D.