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Very interesting read. This seems to be implemented as a Bluetooth LE app running on the ultra-low power “always on processor” used for a variety of features, l
by pininja 5y ago
Very interesting read. This seems to be implemented as a Bluetooth LE app running on the ultra-low power “always on processor” used for a variety of features, like “wake-up on motion.”
Much like an Tile or AirTag is implemented. No comment on what this is capable in the future.. but for now this shows power usage / signal strength / proximity of other “actually on” devices are a limitations of this feature.
What’s impressive is the mesh network effect of all these iPhones / iDevices to locate a “lost” device. I’ll be thankful if I manage to use this to retrieve a lost phone. I’ll be pretty shocked if I’m “spied on” with this style of device.
- trangus_1985 5y agoIf you're not familiar with it, their platform security team releases a whitepaper about the technical details of their security. Regardless of how you feel about Apple, these documents are incredibly well done and interesting to read. The Find My section may have more information, as will their contract tracing docs (which use a riff of the same technology) https://covid19.apple.com/contacttracing https://covid19.apple.com/contacttracing I highly recommend anyone interested in security or privacy to read this from start to finish: https://manuals.info.apple.com/MANUALS/1000/MA1902/en_US/apple-platform-security-guide.pdf https://manuals.info.apple.com/MANUALS/1000/MA1902/en_US/app...
- saagarjha 5y agoUnfortunately that document mentions the AOP just once, only confirming its existence. It doesn't actually describe what it does.
- trangus_1985 5y agoThey do yearly updates, the 2022 doc will very likely have more information. Regardless, the 2021 doc has some key foundations of the technology that are worth knowing. The contract tracing docs _should_ be almost the same technology, and knowing how that works _should_ be a good start. At least, from my eyeing the OP's article as a lay person.
- saagarjha 5y agoAOP has been a thing since iPhone 6s, so they're not particularly rushed in documenting it.
- trangus_1985 5y agoI can't go too into details, but now that the AOP is doing cryptographical operations and key escrow, the internal bus is likely to show up in future documents. Maybe not the AOP but certainly the mechanisms it uses to interact with the find my network. It may also be a separate find my network whitepaper.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago"They do yearly updates, the 2022 doc will very likely have more information." Sure you document such stuff before releasing it?
- josephg 5y ago> Sure you document such stuff before releasing it? Uuuhh so, bad news. Basically nobody ever does that. Since agile, everyone seems to just iterate like mad, release, then document after release if you have time. I'm as guilty of this as everyone else.
- sneak 5y agoApple doesn't even always document stuff after releasing it.
- 5y ago
- TaylorAlexander 5y agoThe chances of you being directly spied on are low. The chances of someone being spied on who could influence the world around you is much higher. So a journalist could be spied on right before they break a big story, potentially leading to a cover up. That’s the problem with stuff like this. Even if you have “nothing to hide” you might rely on someone who legitimately does.
- majormajor 5y agoCan you be more specific with where you think the risk is? As far as I can tell, in this scenario, the journalist has powered off their phone, ignored the message about "findable when power off," and then is somehow tracked through the BT beacon and Find My network. Were their phone to be on, all the same tracking would work. Were they to read the message and go change the settings, this tracking would presumably not work. That assumes you trust that the "always on processor" only does what it says it does, of course. But in that case, any proprietary device is just as bad as any other. (Many supposedly less-proprietary devices could be sneakily subverted, too, no?)
- gremIin 5y agoYou asked what the real risk is then described several risks.
- majormajor 5y agoHow many risks here are new in iOS 15 or exclusive to Apple products? Specifically, I believe the real risk seems to be that you have very few ways to know if your device is doing anything when it's on or off unless the manufacturer tells you. If you don't believe that everyone, including your government is corrupt, the only solution is through government regulation. Clearly the private companies are otherwise going to do what they will.
- krrrh 5y agoIn some cases. In other cases the government regulation is what puts people at risk in ways that the companies have no interest in doing.
- bushbaba 5y ago> I’ll be pretty shocked if I’m “spied on” with this style of device. Why? There's plenty of devices in the wild constantly looking for wifi connection attempts, BLE Scans. Even cellular provider track locations in real-time by logging what cell towers you're using and associated signal strength. Just search for a place in google maps, and note the "Popular Times". How do you think they got that data :D
- whoisburbansky 5y agoThe protocol they use explicitly protects against this attack vector.
- whoisburbansky 5y agoDetails of the rotating key used so that persistent tracking based off of the BLE beacon isn’t possible: https://www.wired.com/story/apple-find-my-cryptography-bluetooth/ https://www.wired.com/story/apple-find-my-cryptography-bluet...
- DrBenCarson 5y agoUm they get that data from being a monopoly and knowing when most people are looking up directions to or information about a location. Sure, they might do some other stuff to expand the data but there's much more relevant data right in their first-party domain.
- seoulmetro 5y agoNo, they definitely read your location on your phone and "place you there". It has nothing to do with active actions made by yourself. The same way traffic readings are done, not by cars, but by people in cars with phones.
- tharkun__ 5y agoApart from what my sibling already said, think about it. How would searching for a restaurant correlate with "popular times"? Not much really. Would be all over the place. I search for the restaurant 3 days in advance at 10 in the morning but I'll be there Saturday night at 8, just like many other people. And at 10 in the morning the restaurant was still closed.
- plzbo 5y agoJust a simple question. Do you believe in freedom of speech? In freedom of the press? If yes, why do you think it would be shocking if you are spied on? You are being spied on at this moment. So what are you going to do?
- pininja 5y agoWe’ve just got a different interpretation of what I wrote. Of course my data and location is tracked all the time - it’s an endless stream. I was referring the thought I’d have if I was to become aware that my Bluetooth signal of my “powered off” iphone was the data source used to spy on me. There are plenty of easier ways to do it… and my phone is usually powered on.
- bsder 5y ago> This seems to be implemented as a Bluetooth LE app running on the ultra-low power “always on processor” used for a variety of features, like “wake-up on motion.” Which, presumably, mere mortal developers have no access to? Sigh. Again.
- CharlesW 5y ago> Which, presumably, mere mortal developers have no access to? I sure hope not, since "mortal developers" include countless bad actors. Apple has an imperfect record, but at least has a vested interest in avoiding abuse.
- didntknowya 5y agoyea I remember years ago Qualcomm was working on an "always on" BLE chip. Use cases they promoted was a 24/7 tracking for ad placements. With privacy concerns back then I thought that would never get approval yet here we are now.
- ravel-bar-foo 5y ago> I’ll be pretty shocked if I’m “spied on” with this style of device. A few days ago I was trying to figure out what an AirTag is, so I read the Apple website. They claim that ordinary people don't need to worry about being tracked, because users who are travelling with an AirTag that is not theirs will have an alert sent their iPhone. This raises three questions which were conveniently elided on Apple's website: 1. What prevents people from using AirTags to track Android users? 2. How does the notification balance false positives, true positives, and notification fatigue in the situations where "someone next to me on the bus leaves an AirTag behind." How is it distinguishable from "someone snuck one into my pocket on the bus"? 3. Under what circumstances will Apple be willing to suppress the notification that one is being tracked by an AirTag?
- SSLy 5y ago>1. What prevents people from using AirTags to track Android users? AirTags are BLE beacons, that Android phones will simply not pick up and not send their signal to the mothership. A background noise.
- fesc 5y agoYou're missing the point. If an Android user is travelling with an AirTag other people (e.g. a colleague) with iPhones will "send the signal to the motherships" but they won't get the alert as they most likely won't be in proximity of the AirTag long enough to trigger it.
- SSLy 5y agoAh, right, thanks. Missed that
- tinus_hn 5y agoWhy are you so worried about expensive AirTags being used to track people? There’s a market full of cheap tracking devices to slip in someone’s pocket and they come with no privacy protection at all.
- 5y ago