7 ms·

First of all this "simple" car may end up being more expensive. Doing a lot of the things the old mechanical way requires a lot of labor and labor is expensive

First of all this "simple" car may end up being more expensive. Doing a lot of the things the old mechanical way requires a lot of labor and labor is expensive nowadays. Having to use turning wires and vacuum tubes for instrument clusters, and a bunch of pull wires for controls... Not only would that be expensive it would require skills and equipment long lost today. Oh and the wind shield wipers -- it is possible to power wind shield wipers mechanically but those were some very complex rube goldberg type mechanisms. Furthermore, this "simple" car will not last very long. People have forgotten that nowadays, but in the old times of "simple" mechanical cars, cars used to break down much more often and require much more skilled maintenance. Most people would not know how to use it. Do you think people will be able to handle an unassisted wheel? You know, actually use their muscles to turn the wheel when parking? How about unassisted brakes? You get into a dangerous situation, you slam on the brakes and then it turns out that you have to use your muscles to actually apply sufficient force. How about even getting into the car without a radio key fob. I very much doubt the majority of people will even know how to lock or unlock their rear doors without a central lock/unlock key. They will probably just leave their car unlocked. But most importantly, it wouldn't sell. Cars nowadays sell based on electronic features. You can see that from the commercials. Even fairly advanced features like navigation and parking sensors are considered a must have now.

WaitWaitWha 5y ago
That maybe true, but my anecdotal evidence is the opposite. > cars used to break down much more often and require much more skilled maintenance. My '78 John Deere 4640 (not a car I give you that) if it breaks down, I can fix it. If I cannot I can order the part. If I cannot, I can have the part made within a week. None of that is possible with a 2021 6145M. If it breaks, I have to sit and wait for JD to bless me with their part. I have less problems with non-electronic equipment than with the electronics enhanced ones. I venture it is very much the same with personal cars.
- markb139 5y ago
  Indeed. We have an aging Audi that has adaptive cruise control. Recently the radar unit failed. To get it replaced at a dealer will cost about half of what the car is worth.
  - sigstoat 5y ago
    what, on an aging audi, _doesn't_ cost half the value of the vehicle to fix? i've heard the same complaint about basically every part of an audi except the tires.
    - gmac 5y ago
      Audi seems to be the brand for people who want a VW, but want to pay extra for it. It’s like the mirror image of Skoda or SEAT (VAG’s more ‘budget’ brands).
  - nradov 5y ago
    This is why it's foolish to purchase a German luxury car, either new or used. The electronics aren't designed to last any longer than the warranty. If you really want to drive one then lease, don't buy.
- vkou 5y ago
  > My '78 John Deere 4640 (not a car I give you that) if it breaks down, I can fix it. That's great, but I don't own a garage, and if my car breaks, it goes to the mechanic. The mechanic needs to eat, and pay the mortgage on her garage, so she will charge $XYZW for repairs. For all the maintenance and repair work I and my father have had done on our cars, 'Some microchip somewhere crapped out' has never made the list. All the failures have been purely mechanical. Your 70s car proposal solves a problem that few people have, and introduces a lot of new ones.
  - nicbou 5y ago
    You don't own a garage, so nobody should get to own repairable vehicles? The problem with fancy electronics is that only a few people chosen, trained and supplied by the manufacturer can work on them. This effectively gives them a monopoly on maintenance. Your mechanic will be cut out of that deal. This also creates a risk for the second hand market, not just in first world countries, but wherever they inherit cars that don't pass inspection. Some garage in Georgia (the country) won't be kitted out to fix computer issues and keep the car running. They can't expect help from OEM, nor third party replacement parts. It's a great planned obsolescence strategy.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  Anecdotes are always a mistake in these situations. You might have better luck with your tractor, which isn’t a car, but the average age of cars on America’s roads has been rising for decades. Your experience is, frankly, an outlier. Also, comparing tractors with cars is an extremely dubious proposition; these are different vehicles with different engineering constraints, uses, and consumer expectations. How many OEMs for cars still make parts for the 1978 vehicles? Hell, what percentage of Americans have the space, knowledge, and interest to build up a garage to service their own vehicles?
  - newsclues 5y ago
    Just wait until the new generation of cars with touchscreens everywhere instead of buttons and knobs for control are old.
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      Do you have any actual data to back up the idea that touch screen interfaces are inherently short lived?
      - Eduard 5y ago
        So many smartphones with digitizers having dead zones after just four years....
        ashtonkem 5y ago
        Car screens are built to different tolerances than cell phones. In particular they must survive a much more harsh environment than most other consumer electronics. This is precisely why the first Tesla screens were so shocking in their size and so unreliable; when Elon Musk found out that he couldn’t get auto screens that large he demanded they use consumer screens, which yellowed and failed due to the heat cars are exposed to. Car screens and normal screens are not the same, at all. This situation is exactly the same as the tractor example above. You’re taking a similar but different object built for different use cases and different financial and engineering constraints, and declaring that the outcome of one is predictive of another.
Gravityloss 5y ago
So true. Computing is very cheap nowadays. It is also very reliable. If you watch Sandy Munro's videos, he mentions often how his visits with Chinese car manufacturers go, when they discuss architecture options. Customers hold up a cell phone and ask "How can we make it more like this?". The cell phone got rid of separate components a long time ago. Everything's on one PCB, plus the display. And many things that used to be on the PCB but consisted of many chips, are now integrated to a single chip. The car consisting of a lot of OEM boxes connected with wires seems so outdated. And each box having a separate computer makes it in essence stranded. Instead, if the control is centralized, then it's possible to take the complexity to software and keep managing it much better, features are easier to develop and can be sent to existing cars over the air etc.
- nicbou 5y ago
  What if you don't want OTA features, but a simple car you can fix separately form the manufacturer's supply chain? This might not be a huge concern for the HN demographic, but it is for developing countries operating whatever vehicles the EU deems too dangerous or polluting for their roads. There are no PCBs making their way to Central Asia. The problem with black boxes is that they work until they don't. In some cases like fuel injection, they're a significant reliability improvement. In others they're a ticking time bomb that can make the entire vehicle unusable. This a problem in the motorcycle world. You now have bikes that are dead because of computer issues. Small pebbles if you're near a dealership, possibly deadly if you use adventure bikes for their intended purpose.
  - Gravityloss 5y ago
    Yeah, there's some problems with the approach. But I guess if you had an old one, you could install some open source software, or replace the whole computer. I assume it would cost a few hundred bucks at most. It's peanuts compared to engine, or in electric car, battery work. The main board on an iphone is taking a really small part of the whole nowadays. https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/JtBACGbyZcYSdBfL.huge https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/JtBACGbyZcYSdBfL.hug... Besides maybe some machine vision things, the computing in a car seems to have very low performance requirements. Sensors, actuators and controllers etc are another thing then, but they're different.
teeray 5y ago
> cars used to break down much more often and require much more skilled maintenance. Yeah, but “skilled maintenance “ was an easy skill. There could only be a handful of things wrong if it didn’t start: e.g. no spark, no fuel. In the case of no spark, you check the plug, see if it’s dirty, change it if so; check the distributor, maybe the points are bad; check the coil or condenser… yeah there were things to check, but you could actually fix it once you learned about it. And yes, you could do this on the side of the road—there were “tool rolls” you could have for such purposes. Now, you get a check engine light and the code reader says, in so many words: “bring to dealer and pay up”
- hef19898 5y ago
  And how often does that happen with modern day cars compared to old ones? I would argue that older cars, pre electronic wizardry, are easier to repair (assuming spare parts are available) but break down more often. Older cars are also in need of more maintenance. Modern cars need an inspection every 30k km and hardly ever break down. When they do, they are usually toast so (at least financially). Older cars are financially toast as well, if you cannot do the work yourself so.
  - nicbou 5y ago
    New cars are reliable because we got better at making cars, not because they're loaded with new points of failure. This started in the 90s at the very least.
- abraae 5y ago
  When I was a lad I had an illegal ancient motor scooter that didn't start. One of the dads told me: "If it's got compression, and it's got fuel, and it's got a spark, then it's got to go". He was right.
  - markrages 5y ago
    Just wait until you get a sheared pin on the distributor drive... Compression, fuel, spark, no go.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tibbon 5y ago
One of my motorcycles is from 1973. Nary a tube or chip on it. I think it's got a turn blinker that's kinda a flip-flop, but I think it's just charging and discharging capacitors. It's lasted way longer than most modern disposable vehicles. I don't know if most of these things actually require digital features.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  But how many parts of it are original? In other words is it the ship of Theseus? Does it pass e-check or is it exempt? Regardless I do appreciate the simplicity of long past inventions.
- brewdad 5y ago
  You say "one of" your motorcycles, so I take it you aren't riding this bike everyday, putting 12-15,000 miles a year on it and needing it to be reliable every time you go to work or run an errand. Apples to oranges comparison.
  - nicbou 5y ago
    Frankly aside from the carb, the maintenance and reliability are pretty much the same. A new bike's parts would wear too. However the computer won't crap out on you, and this is now happening with new bikes. Adventure bikes mind you. I wouldn't want my adventure cut short by a computer problem I can't fix in the field. They still sell bikes without that crap, and they are absurdly reliable.
- TomVDB 5y ago
  Does that motorcycle pass modern emission requirements? The engine controle unit plays a major role in emission control and fuel economy.
doctorshady 5y ago
I have an early nineties car like the parent describes; processor controlled fuel injection/valve timing/other core engine routines, and that's pretty much it with the exception of windshield wiper control and the radio. Practicality of making a car like that today aside, it's remarkably well built, and I have no problem believing it'll last at least another five years.
DevoidSimo 5y ago
I've driven my car with only enough battery to really power the spark plugs and instruments in the dash (alternator failed and I got jump started). It was manageable even with the heavy steering, although to be fair I was driving max 50kph. Perhaps braking at highway speeds would be challenging. I also much prefer my phone navigation over the in car system (Android Auto/Apple Carplay would solve this). That said, I wouldn't buy the car GP is suggesting, but I could imagine that if you were price sensitive then you might. No comment around the older systems, I don't really have the knowledge to agree or disagree there.
ahoka 5y ago
OP said "electronic control" not electronics, not the same! If you have an analog control on the dashboard directly connected to the heater element than it is electronic, but not electronically controlled.
bambax 5y ago
> But most importantly, it wouldn't sell. You don't know that. I'm pretty sure there is a market for simple cars that don't tell you what to do, don't report you to the authorities, don't shut down unexpectedly because you didn't follow the manufacturer's maintenance schedule, etc. > How about even getting into the car without a radio key fob. I very much doubt the majority of people will even know how to lock or unlock their rear doors without a central lock/unlock key. They will probably just leave their car unlocked. I can't tell if this is satire or not, but people who can't open a door with a key and a handle maybe shouldn't be allowed to drive.
jaclaz 5y ago
I think you chose a few wrong examples, power steering and brake assistance (simple depression from the engine) were a thing much before electronics became ubiquitous, as well as central locks (just a bunch of solenoids), the issue is much more with safety-related systems like ABS and engine (and pollution) control.

WaitWaitWha 5y ago

That maybe true, but my anecdotal evidence is the opposite. > cars used to break down much more often and require much more skilled maintenance. My '78 John Deere 4640 (not a car I give you that) if it breaks down, I can fix it. If I cannot I can order the part. If I cannot, I can have the part made within a week. None of that is possible with a 2021 6145M. If it breaks, I have to sit and wait for JD to bless me with their part. I have less problems with non-electronic equipment than with the electronics enhanced ones. I venture it is very much the same with personal cars.

markb139 5y ago
Indeed. We have an aging Audi that has adaptive cruise control. Recently the radar unit failed. To get it replaced at a dealer will cost about half of what the car is worth.
- sigstoat 5y ago
  what, on an aging audi, _doesn't_ cost half the value of the vehicle to fix? i've heard the same complaint about basically every part of an audi except the tires.
  - gmac 5y ago
    Audi seems to be the brand for people who want a VW, but want to pay extra for it. It’s like the mirror image of Skoda or SEAT (VAG’s more ‘budget’ brands).
- nradov 5y ago
  This is why it's foolish to purchase a German luxury car, either new or used. The electronics aren't designed to last any longer than the warranty. If you really want to drive one then lease, don't buy.
vkou 5y ago
> My '78 John Deere 4640 (not a car I give you that) if it breaks down, I can fix it. That's great, but I don't own a garage, and if my car breaks, it goes to the mechanic. The mechanic needs to eat, and pay the mortgage on her garage, so she will charge $XYZW for repairs. For all the maintenance and repair work I and my father have had done on our cars, 'Some microchip somewhere crapped out' has never made the list. All the failures have been purely mechanical. Your 70s car proposal solves a problem that few people have, and introduces a lot of new ones.
- nicbou 5y ago
  You don't own a garage, so nobody should get to own repairable vehicles? The problem with fancy electronics is that only a few people chosen, trained and supplied by the manufacturer can work on them. This effectively gives them a monopoly on maintenance. Your mechanic will be cut out of that deal. This also creates a risk for the second hand market, not just in first world countries, but wherever they inherit cars that don't pass inspection. Some garage in Georgia (the country) won't be kitted out to fix computer issues and keep the car running. They can't expect help from OEM, nor third party replacement parts. It's a great planned obsolescence strategy.
ashtonkem 5y ago
Anecdotes are always a mistake in these situations. You might have better luck with your tractor, which isn’t a car, but the average age of cars on America’s roads has been rising for decades. Your experience is, frankly, an outlier. Also, comparing tractors with cars is an extremely dubious proposition; these are different vehicles with different engineering constraints, uses, and consumer expectations. How many OEMs for cars still make parts for the 1978 vehicles? Hell, what percentage of Americans have the space, knowledge, and interest to build up a garage to service their own vehicles?
- newsclues 5y ago
  Just wait until the new generation of cars with touchscreens everywhere instead of buttons and knobs for control are old.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    Do you have any actual data to back up the idea that touch screen interfaces are inherently short lived?
    - Eduard 5y ago
      So many smartphones with digitizers having dead zones after just four years....
      - ashtonkem 5y ago
        Car screens are built to different tolerances than cell phones. In particular they must survive a much more harsh environment than most other consumer electronics. This is precisely why the first Tesla screens were so shocking in their size and so unreliable; when Elon Musk found out that he couldn’t get auto screens that large he demanded they use consumer screens, which yellowed and failed due to the heat cars are exposed to. Car screens and normal screens are not the same, at all. This situation is exactly the same as the tractor example above. You’re taking a similar but different object built for different use cases and different financial and engineering constraints, and declaring that the outcome of one is predictive of another.

Gravityloss 5y ago

So true. Computing is very cheap nowadays. It is also very reliable. If you watch Sandy Munro's videos, he mentions often how his visits with Chinese car manufacturers go, when they discuss architecture options. Customers hold up a cell phone and ask "How can we make it more like this?". The cell phone got rid of separate components a long time ago. Everything's on one PCB, plus the display. And many things that used to be on the PCB but consisted of many chips, are now integrated to a single chip. The car consisting of a lot of OEM boxes connected with wires seems so outdated. And each box having a separate computer makes it in essence stranded. Instead, if the control is centralized, then it's possible to take the complexity to software and keep managing it much better, features are easier to develop and can be sent to existing cars over the air etc.

nicbou 5y ago
What if you don't want OTA features, but a simple car you can fix separately form the manufacturer's supply chain? This might not be a huge concern for the HN demographic, but it is for developing countries operating whatever vehicles the EU deems too dangerous or polluting for their roads. There are no PCBs making their way to Central Asia. The problem with black boxes is that they work until they don't. In some cases like fuel injection, they're a significant reliability improvement. In others they're a ticking time bomb that can make the entire vehicle unusable. This a problem in the motorcycle world. You now have bikes that are dead because of computer issues. Small pebbles if you're near a dealership, possibly deadly if you use adventure bikes for their intended purpose.
- Gravityloss 5y ago
  Yeah, there's some problems with the approach. But I guess if you had an old one, you could install some open source software, or replace the whole computer. I assume it would cost a few hundred bucks at most. It's peanuts compared to engine, or in electric car, battery work. The main board on an iphone is taking a really small part of the whole nowadays. https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/JtBACGbyZcYSdBfL.huge https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/JtBACGbyZcYSdBfL.hug... Besides maybe some machine vision things, the computing in a car seems to have very low performance requirements. Sensors, actuators and controllers etc are another thing then, but they're different.

teeray 5y ago

> cars used to break down much more often and require much more skilled maintenance. Yeah, but “skilled maintenance “ was an easy skill. There could only be a handful of things wrong if it didn’t start: e.g. no spark, no fuel. In the case of no spark, you check the plug, see if it’s dirty, change it if so; check the distributor, maybe the points are bad; check the coil or condenser… yeah there were things to check, but you could actually fix it once you learned about it. And yes, you could do this on the side of the road—there were “tool rolls” you could have for such purposes. Now, you get a check engine light and the code reader says, in so many words: “bring to dealer and pay up”

hef19898 5y ago
And how often does that happen with modern day cars compared to old ones? I would argue that older cars, pre electronic wizardry, are easier to repair (assuming spare parts are available) but break down more often. Older cars are also in need of more maintenance. Modern cars need an inspection every 30k km and hardly ever break down. When they do, they are usually toast so (at least financially). Older cars are financially toast as well, if you cannot do the work yourself so.
- nicbou 5y ago
  New cars are reliable because we got better at making cars, not because they're loaded with new points of failure. This started in the 90s at the very least.
abraae 5y ago
When I was a lad I had an illegal ancient motor scooter that didn't start. One of the dads told me: "If it's got compression, and it's got fuel, and it's got a spark, then it's got to go". He was right.
- markrages 5y ago
  Just wait until you get a sheared pin on the distributor drive... Compression, fuel, spark, no go.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

tibbon 5y ago

One of my motorcycles is from 1973. Nary a tube or chip on it. I think it's got a turn blinker that's kinda a flip-flop, but I think it's just charging and discharging capacitors. It's lasted way longer than most modern disposable vehicles. I don't know if most of these things actually require digital features.

paulryanrogers 5y ago
But how many parts of it are original? In other words is it the ship of Theseus? Does it pass e-check or is it exempt? Regardless I do appreciate the simplicity of long past inventions.
brewdad 5y ago
You say "one of" your motorcycles, so I take it you aren't riding this bike everyday, putting 12-15,000 miles a year on it and needing it to be reliable every time you go to work or run an errand. Apples to oranges comparison.
- nicbou 5y ago
  Frankly aside from the carb, the maintenance and reliability are pretty much the same. A new bike's parts would wear too. However the computer won't crap out on you, and this is now happening with new bikes. Adventure bikes mind you. I wouldn't want my adventure cut short by a computer problem I can't fix in the field. They still sell bikes without that crap, and they are absurdly reliable.
TomVDB 5y ago
Does that motorcycle pass modern emission requirements? The engine controle unit plays a major role in emission control and fuel economy.

doctorshady 5y ago

I have an early nineties car like the parent describes; processor controlled fuel injection/valve timing/other core engine routines, and that's pretty much it with the exception of windshield wiper control and the radio. Practicality of making a car like that today aside, it's remarkably well built, and I have no problem believing it'll last at least another five years.

DevoidSimo 5y ago

I've driven my car with only enough battery to really power the spark plugs and instruments in the dash (alternator failed and I got jump started). It was manageable even with the heavy steering, although to be fair I was driving max 50kph. Perhaps braking at highway speeds would be challenging. I also much prefer my phone navigation over the in car system (Android Auto/Apple Carplay would solve this). That said, I wouldn't buy the car GP is suggesting, but I could imagine that if you were price sensitive then you might. No comment around the older systems, I don't really have the knowledge to agree or disagree there.

ahoka 5y ago

OP said "electronic control" not electronics, not the same! If you have an analog control on the dashboard directly connected to the heater element than it is electronic, but not electronically controlled.

bambax 5y ago

> But most importantly, it wouldn't sell. You don't know that. I'm pretty sure there is a market for simple cars that don't tell you what to do, don't report you to the authorities, don't shut down unexpectedly because you didn't follow the manufacturer's maintenance schedule, etc. > How about even getting into the car without a radio key fob. I very much doubt the majority of people will even know how to lock or unlock their rear doors without a central lock/unlock key. They will probably just leave their car unlocked. I can't tell if this is satire or not, but people who can't open a door with a key and a handle maybe shouldn't be allowed to drive.

jaclaz 5y ago

I think you chose a few wrong examples, power steering and brake assistance (simple depression from the engine) were a thing much before electronics became ubiquitous, as well as central locks (just a bunch of solenoids), the issue is much more with safety-related systems like ABS and engine (and pollution) control.