15 ms·

What I'll never understand is why carmakers don't take advantage of this situation and address a market that's been literally BEGGING for decades for a new prod

by caeril 5y ago

What I'll never understand is why carmakers don't take advantage of this situation and address a market that's been literally BEGGING for decades for a new product: A simple, basic car, with the ONLY electronic control being for: - Valve timing - Fuel injection - Oxygen and throttle - Emissions There's a market for budget and privacy oriented customers that all carmakers seem to have ignored for two decades now. Give us a simple car with no GPS navigation, ass warmers, tire pressure sensors, telemetry, backup cameras, USB chargers, proximity detectors, traction control, keyless entry, remote climate control, etc. But instead of addressing this market, these carmakers have decided to throw up their hands and shut down production or pile up unfinished inventory waiting on chips. It makes precisely zero sense. I understand the re-engineering is a cost. But when you're simply removing existing features, this should be a fairly negligible one. edit: I wasn't aware any of these luxury features were mandated by governments. Apologies, and disregard.

kenniskrag 5y ago
tire pressure sensor, gps and e-call is needed by law.
- paxys 5y ago
  And rear view cameras
- _moof 5y ago
  And I'm not sure what kinds of pressure sensors cars use, but I can tell you the ones I need have been impossible to source for months.
  - emidln 5y ago
    TPMS works by calculating the RPM of the wheel and knowing the tire size and vehicle speed. Most TPMS setups don't know the actual pressure, they infer it.
    - lastofthemojito 5y ago
      Both types of systems exist, but from what I've seen the indirect TPMS systems you're describing are becoming less popular. I'm somewhat familiar with Mazdas anyhow and that's the way it's going with them. For 2017 the Mazda6 used an indirect system: https://www.mazdausa.com/static/manuals/2017/mazda6/contents/05120100.html https://www.mazdausa.com/static/manuals/2017/mazda6/contents... For 2020 it's a direct system with in-tire sensors: https://www.mazdausa.com/static/manuals/2020/mazda6/contents/05120200.html https://www.mazdausa.com/static/manuals/2020/mazda6/contents...
    - _moof 5y ago
      Oh, interesting. Well, my car at least has sensors—either that or I paid way too much for valve stems. :)
    - tschwimmer 5y ago
      This is true of cheaper cars, like my Honda. German cars like Audis and Porsches have direct TPMS that can actually tell you the exact tire pressure.
      - matli 5y ago
        Most Audis have indirect systems, but they have direct TPMS as an optional extra. At least that's the case on the European market, unsure about the US market. Some premium Audis also have loose wheel detection, which is based on a similar technology as the indirect TPMS.
- paganel 5y ago
  Maybe we should amend/change those laws back.
  - cedilla 5y ago
    Perhaps we shouldn't. The EU estimates that half the fatalities on the road will be prevented with these systems. That's 10.000 lives each year. If that's true, increasing the cost marginally is more than worth it (and it really is marginally, budget cars have not noticably increased in price).
    - paganel 5y ago
      > budget cars have not noticably increased in price Actually, they did. The new Dacia Logan starts at 8500 euros, back in 2009 you could buy an entry-level one at about 5500-6000 euros, which would be around 6400-7000 euros in today's money. At those entry level prices those extra 1500-2000 euros do count.
    - AdrianB1 5y ago
      They probably estimated from behind a desk to justify some activity, not by research. Over 90% of the fatalities on the road in my country, that has the highest numbers in EU, come from excessive speed and ignoring road laws, something no current safety systems can change. Even airbags are completely useless in a front collision at 150km/h.
      - realityking 5y ago
        Good news, the EU realizes that as well. Starting May 2022 all new cars sold in the EU need to support Intelligent Speed Adaptation: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/european-union-speed-limiters-driver-monitors-2022/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/european-union-speed-limi...
  - JTbane 5y ago
    Those systems are good for idiot-proofing. You don't want some idiot with underinflated tires running off the highway. In the same way, you don't want them to back over your kid in a parking lot.
- fomine3 5y ago
  I didn't know TPMS is mandatory in US and EU about a decade ago. It's still not mandatory in Japan so most cars except luxury or imported don't equip it. Maybe vehicle inspection program (shaken) for every two years helps to avoid using worn tires. Also maybe due to less people use run flat tires than US/EU, or roads in Japan is better.
clintonb 5y ago
Is the _market_ begging, or a few folks on the internet? The only folks I know that complain about technology in cars are a couple posters on internet forums.
- blfr 5y ago
  Yeah, I don't like how overcomplicated many products are becoming but even then wouldn't buy a car without at least AC and Bluetooth.
  - tristan957 5y ago
    You could easily pick up an after market bluetooth-enabled product. A/C is definitely important however.
    - tim333 5y ago
      Though A/C doesn't really need much in the way of electronics.
  - foobarian 5y ago
    My must-have now is the backup camera with steering integration. I can hook up a trailer like a god now.
    - moffkalast 5y ago
      "Where is your god now?" "Right behind you."
    - SamuelAdams 5y ago
      Actually new vehicles are legally required to have backup cameras. At least if they are sold in the US [1]. I would love to see a simple, back to the basics vehicle but there is so much regulation and safety requirements that it is unlikely for any basic vehicle to be sold in the US. [1]: https://abcnews.go.com/US/cars-us-now-required-backup-cameras/story?id=54854404 https://abcnews.go.com/US/cars-us-now-required-backup-camera...
kayone 5y ago
most things you mention are mandated by the government, you can't sell a car in any western market without tire pressure monitoring, stability control, back up camera etc. the manufacturers have no choice, it would be like suggesting they sell cars without seatbelts.
- ohmaigad 5y ago
  Back up cameras are not mandatory until May 2022 in the EU.
  - paganel 5y ago
    We're already only a few months away from 2022, most (if not all) carmakers present on the EU market have included back-up cameras in their vehicles. I know that my brother's Dacia Logan built in 2019 already had one.
    - Hamuko 5y ago
      Backup cameras have been an optional extra for a long time sure, but I don't think I'm aware of any car that actually comes standard with one. Well, maybe a Mercedes-Benz S-Class. I do have a backup camera in my 10-year-old Benz, but I imagine that the original owner paid a four-digit amount of euros for it back in the day.
      - jmccaf 5y ago
        'Rear Visibility' is required in new cars in US by FMVSS 111. Test procedure mandates field of view to rear of vehicles during backing, that are practical to satisfy with cameras. mirrors would require like a periscope to satisfy.
        Hamuko 5y ago
        Yeah, but the US isn't the EU.
      - deleted 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bb123 5y ago
I think Dacia addresses this market pretty well already. However many of the things you’ve listed (cameras, TPMS, telemetry) are mandated by law in most regions.
carlmr 5y ago
Tire pressure sensors, ABS, ESP, airbags, etc. are compulsory in new cars in most countries.
liamwire 5y ago
I think you’re vastly a) underestimating the time it takes to bring a new product line all the way into production in the auto industry, and b) overestimating the true demand for such a product, Hacker News and adjacent crowds notwithstanding – peoples broadly have come to expect those simple features at practically every price point, as evidenced by the ubiquity of said features in the market.
- throwawayjava 5y ago
  B in particular. Products like the Yaris compete on price alone.
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    And Yaris is already premium affordable car. Koreans are slightly below it and then cheap ones are India or specific models.
usmannk 5y ago
I can't imagine anyone would want the car you described, for market-sized values of "anyone"
- ihalip 5y ago
  The latest Dacia Sandero is selling better than all other models in its class for a few months now - even if it's basically a revamped last-gen Renault Clio with even lower quality interior and safety features. Some people prefer a basic, cheaper car.
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    Is that because it's literally impossible to buy other cars since they have a chip backlog though? Is it worth redesigning a car for a trend that will be gone next year?
    - AdrianB1 5y ago
      No, it is because it is a lot cheaper and it can be bought by people that otherwise would not be able to buy a car at all. I know people who bought a Sandero for this reason and I was considering buying one one year ago, just before they announced an electric Dacia that I am still waiting for.
- asdff 5y ago
  Anyone driving a car thats older than 15 years old is already driving the car that OP is describing.
  - LawnGnome 5y ago
    Sure, but do they actually want that car, or is that just what they have and can afford?
    - dropofwill 5y ago
      I personally have no interest in any upgrades over my 20 year old car. Maybe electric or no car at all if my living situation changed to support it. Obviously my hand will be forced soon enough as it slowly degrades.
lallysingh 5y ago
AFAIK, backup cams and TPMS are required. As for privacy, how do any of those features affect anything? But they're not changing their lineups, product design and marketing are expensive and take a long time. I don't think shrine expects the shortage to last that long.
- Hamuko 5y ago
  >AFAIK, backup cams and TPMS are required. Backup cameras are indeed mandated by law in the US for all new cars and have been since 2018.
Scene_Cast2 5y ago
There are two practical issues with your suggestion. One is that neither one of us have any idea of the electronics BOM breakdown between the various parts of the car, and whether the effect of shortage would be mitigated in a meaningful way if the entertainment stuff was simplified. And you can't legally sell a new car in the US without back-up cameras and tire pressure monitoring. The second issue is that re-designing that part of the car takes more than a year (probably years, given that you need to collaborate with business and marketing to fit it in the existing lineup and e.g. not have it be associated with down-market products)
- octorian 5y ago
  Especially since the chips experiencing horrible shortages are the cheap simple ones used for those dumb features no one even thinks about anymore.
throwawayjava 5y ago
By the time you finish the product design and manufacturing pipeline the chip shortage will be long over, and the market for a car without any modern amenities is not actually that big.
Etheryte 5y ago
It might make zero sense as a buyer but as a manufacturer it makes a lot of sense. I would guesstimate that most of the margin is made on luxury and add-on features. A good example of this is rims: larger rims don't change anything for a daily driver, but you can add them as an option for a considerable premium. Same for many other add-ons and they're still bought very often. In addition to this, while there definitely is a certain subset of the market that would appreciate a product with considerably fewer features, my gut feeling is that it's the same in automobiles as in tech — it's a very small part of the market.
chefkoch 5y ago
>A simple, basic car, with the ONLY electronic control being for: - Valve timing - Fuel injection - Oxygen and throttle - Emissions You still need electronics for - ABS - ESP - Airbags (- Diagnostics) Because these are mandated. Buy a cheap Dacia and there won't be much else except electric windows.
- paganel 5y ago
  I found that one can live without ESP. > Buy a cheap Dacia and there won't be much else except electric windows. As mandated by EU law the latest Dacia models already have most of those, they do have back up cameras, for example.
  - NathanielK 5y ago
    > I found that one can live without ESP. True, but on average ESP is highly effective. Cars with ESP are correlated with 40-50% less running off the road or roll over crashes.[0] Carrie Underwood may sing about Jesus Taking the Wheel[1], but she really has GM Stabilitrak to thank. [0] https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/810794 https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lydBPm2KRaU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lydBPm2KRaU
windowsrookie 5y ago
In the United States backup cameras, tire pressure monitors, and electronic stability control are required by law. So out of your list that leaves.. GPS (already optional on most cars) Ass warmers (already optional on most cars) Telemetry (this could be removed from models that have it, not all cars sold today have telemetry) USB chargers (really don't think USB chargers are causing a production shortage at this moment) Proximity Sensors (already optional on budget cars) Keyless entry (could be removed, I doubt many people would buy a new car without keyless entry tho) Remote climate control (already optional on budget cars)
- mrweasel 5y ago
  I tried to buy a car without AC, but as it turns out that’s almost impossible. They had never imported that model without AC and the waiting time was pretty long, because they where not really built in large numbers. The models without AC mostly exist so they can produce ads saying “available from less than X“
  - CamperBob2 5y ago
    What's the point of buying a car without A/C? You might save $1000 now, but you'll lose several thousand at trade-in time because no one else will want your car.
    - ok123456 5y ago
      No parasitic power losses and it's one less system that needs to be maintained.
      - tms2x2 5y ago
        AC is used for windshield defrost. I remember waiting for heat to defrost the windshield so I could see. AC defrost works in 10 sec.
      - nikau 5y ago
        The power loss from an AC compressor with the clutch disengaged is negligible. Modern AC also use variable displacement compressors which adjust load according to temperature, so once the cabin is cool they use a constant small amount of engine power rather than toggling to full power on and off like older designs.
mymythisisthis 5y ago
I think that keyless systems came after few incidents of people's key chains being too heavy and accidentally turning the car off when hitting a bump on the highway. Since most cars keys already, from the late 90s, had chips in them, to prevent theft. It was the next step to remove the superfluous metal part.
- foobarian 5y ago
  I love keyless entry. I can approach the car with two hands full of bags and still manage to open a door or trunk without having to free up a hand just so I can rummage through pockets to find the keys.
bserge 5y ago
I want something (exactly) like a Ford Escort 1988 model with the 1.6 diesel (Ford LT "Dagenham") engine. That thing would work long after a massive solar flare and nuclear apocalypse... If it wasn't rusted to shit. So yeah, better alloy/treatment for the frame :D
paxys 5y ago
Almost everything you have mentioned are expensive add-ons. Any budget base model car today comes only with stuff mandated by law and little else.
outside1234 5y ago
You probably want ABS as well - and then everyone else will want their favorite feature - and pretty soon we'll be where we are.
mlavin 5y ago
Buy an old Dodge W250 with a 12-valve Cummins 6BT, and enjoy mechanical fuel injection and 160 hp. No emissions control, no timing chain or belt, no overhead cams, no aluminum block or heads, ABS is optional, no airbags.
- nikau 5y ago
  And with that 15MPG fuel economy you get to give your maintenance savings to the gas station instead while you drive a slow uncomfortable car.
hristov 5y ago
First of all this "simple" car may end up being more expensive. Doing a lot of the things the old mechanical way requires a lot of labor and labor is expensive nowadays. Having to use turning wires and vacuum tubes for instrument clusters, and a bunch of pull wires for controls... Not only would that be expensive it would require skills and equipment long lost today. Oh and the wind shield wipers -- it is possible to power wind shield wipers mechanically but those were some very complex rube goldberg type mechanisms. Furthermore, this "simple" car will not last very long. People have forgotten that nowadays, but in the old times of "simple" mechanical cars, cars used to break down much more often and require much more skilled maintenance. Most people would not know how to use it. Do you think people will be able to handle an unassisted wheel? You know, actually use their muscles to turn the wheel when parking? How about unassisted brakes? You get into a dangerous situation, you slam on the brakes and then it turns out that you have to use your muscles to actually apply sufficient force. How about even getting into the car without a radio key fob. I very much doubt the majority of people will even know how to lock or unlock their rear doors without a central lock/unlock key. They will probably just leave their car unlocked. But most importantly, it wouldn't sell. Cars nowadays sell based on electronic features. You can see that from the commercials. Even fairly advanced features like navigation and parking sensors are considered a must have now.
- WaitWaitWha 5y ago
  That maybe true, but my anecdotal evidence is the opposite. > cars used to break down much more often and require much more skilled maintenance. My '78 John Deere 4640 (not a car I give you that) if it breaks down, I can fix it. If I cannot I can order the part. If I cannot, I can have the part made within a week. None of that is possible with a 2021 6145M. If it breaks, I have to sit and wait for JD to bless me with their part. I have less problems with non-electronic equipment than with the electronics enhanced ones. I venture it is very much the same with personal cars.
  - markb139 5y ago
    Indeed. We have an aging Audi that has adaptive cruise control. Recently the radar unit failed. To get it replaced at a dealer will cost about half of what the car is worth.
estaseuropano 5y ago
That sounds like the Dacia and Tata approaches, although they sell addon packs as well.
- Hamuko 5y ago
  Dacia's addon packages are pretty tame since you need to get an addon package for an FM radio or for height-adjustable seats.
pomian 5y ago
I like your idea. The only reason all those accessories are mandated, is because the car industry made it so, thus increasing the value (profit) of a standard car. We could just as easily 'mandate', a different class of vehicle. Call it a classic class, or something. For example, motorcycles don't have back up cameras, air bags, etc. Back to the consumer having a choice. Similar to right to repair.
- kayone 5y ago
  > motorcycles don't have back up cameras, air bags, etc. why do you think that is?
  - adolph 5y ago
    Organ donation lobby no doubt.
- loeg 5y ago
  Motorcycles don’t have a reverse gear and airbags only help if you have seatbelts. Not sure what your point is. Motorcycles are radically more dangerous for riders than passenger cars are for drivers.
oh_sigh 5y ago
This is a surefire way to sell hundreds of cars. Yes, hundreds!
javanscala 5y ago
I believe backup cameras and TPMS systems are now mandatory for US cars, so some of the complexity is mandated at least for “production” vehicles.
bigmattystyles 5y ago
Every time I hear about self-driving, I just think how bad every media system UI and functionality of BT, etc. in cars have ever been. I know it's probably different teams and much stricter standards for self-driving but all I ever think when using my Mazda's media center is 'fast chance I trust this team with self driving'. As far as media centers go, just make apple carplay / android auto standard...
elorant 5y ago
So what about airbags? Or ABS? Those are basic safety features that cannot work without electronics.
chrisseaton 5y ago
> tire pressure sensors ... luxury features These are to keep people alive! They aren't luxuries unless you think living is a luxury!
pickle-wizard 5y ago
Good news, you can buy this car today. It is called the Mitsubishi Mirage. Hardly anyone buys it because it is an absolutely dreadful car to drive.
k8sToGo 5y ago
You are welcome to buy the most basic Dacia at any time
moooo99 5y ago
I have a lot of thoughts about this comment, but here are my two cents. > There's a market for budget and privacy oriented customers that all carmakers seem to have ignored for two decades now. Give us a simple car with no GPS navigation, ass warmers, tire pressure sensors, telemetry, backup cameras, USB chargers, proximity detectors, traction control, keyless entry, remote climate control, etc. I feel like you're vastly overestimating the market size. Most non-tech people don't care about their privacy on their phone, their laptop or their TV. Most people don‘t even know that their car actually has the hardware to track them, why would they care about their privacy in their car? > I understand the re-engineering is a cost. But when you're simply removing existing features, this should be a fairly negligible one. I would not expect that to be fairly simple re-engineering. Many assistive technologies are mandatory in new vehicles (at least in some regions like the EU) such as automatic emergency calls, etc. Those are not standalone systems but they have many dependencies on sensors, etc. With the supply chains of traditional automakers, chances are the components necessary to integrate one mandatory system aren't even from the same supplier. This makes cherry picking features extremely hard if not impossible. > these carmakers have decided to throw up their hands and shut down production or pile up unfinished inventory waiting on chips. It makes precisely zero sense. I don't think it's coincidental that they decide to shut down a plant in Germany (besides the fact that Opel is originally German). In Germany we have something called "Kurzarbeitergeld" which is a support companies in trouble can receive in certain situations to support their employees. Employees continue to work a fraction of the time (50% Kurzarbeit basically means you only work half of your weekly hours, 100% Kurarbeit means you don't work at all for a certain period). The money the employees receive is largely paid for by the Government (the taxpayer). Usually Kurarbeit comes with a very strict set of rules, but thanks to covid those rules have been loosened a bit and especially carmakers (VW and BMW) take advantage of it (BMW for example sent many of their workers into Kurzarbeit but decided to pay billions of dividends to the Quandt family). So I suspect it was cheapest to shut down the Germany plant.
quacked 5y ago
I disagree with most of the people responding to you; I think if Toyota re-released the 2000 Tacoma with minor updates to the stereo system and a webcam on the back they'd do a billion in sales.
JudasGoat 5y ago
I personally wish that the infotainment part of the vehicle was a interface cable where the customer could freely choose the platform and also have an upgrade path in the future. Making cars more like cell phones means they will assume the lifetime of a cell phone.
- dfadsadsf 5y ago
  That’s already exist - Apple Carplay/Android Auto. Gets better with every iOS release and app update. First thing i do when i get in the car is plug my phone in and support for wireless Carplay will be major factor in my next car purchase.
jordache 5y ago
You assert removing those "luxury" items results in a car that is immune to chip supply issues.
cush 5y ago
Most of the tech results in absolutely critical safety features. Backup/blind spot cams, safer cruise control, breaking systems, etc etc. Nobody is begging for more dangerous cars.
00N8 5y ago
I like your thinking & I wish this was a thing, but even if it were legal to sell new cars w/out ABS, traction control, backup cameras, etc., it seems like anyone who would actually follow thru w/ buying a car like that could just buy a used car - or buy a car w/ a salvage title & replace everything to their exact preferences - for way less than a new car costs anyway
gnopgnip 5y ago
Some side by sides or UTVs are pretty close to what you are asking for. As these vehicles are not universally road legal they don't have many requirements, it is really up to the market. Many are under $10k and have relatively few electronics. Some of them can be operated on public roads at lower speeds. And when you are no longer designing a vehicle for 70-90+ speeds you can make a lot of other changes, engine 1/4 the size, lighter wheels, brakes, frame while still being able to tow as much as a mid size suv.
Grakel 5y ago
Completely agree and it's because they don't want to make great cars they want to make profit on add-ons.

by caeril 5y ago

kenniskrag 5y ago

tire pressure sensor, gps and e-call is needed by law.

paxys 5y ago
And rear view cameras
_moof 5y ago
And I'm not sure what kinds of pressure sensors cars use, but I can tell you the ones I need have been impossible to source for months.
- emidln 5y ago
  TPMS works by calculating the RPM of the wheel and knowing the tire size and vehicle speed. Most TPMS setups don't know the actual pressure, they infer it.
  - lastofthemojito 5y ago
    Both types of systems exist, but from what I've seen the indirect TPMS systems you're describing are becoming less popular. I'm somewhat familiar with Mazdas anyhow and that's the way it's going with them. For 2017 the Mazda6 used an indirect system: https://www.mazdausa.com/static/manuals/2017/mazda6/contents/05120100.html https://www.mazdausa.com/static/manuals/2017/mazda6/contents... For 2020 it's a direct system with in-tire sensors: https://www.mazdausa.com/static/manuals/2020/mazda6/contents/05120200.html https://www.mazdausa.com/static/manuals/2020/mazda6/contents...
  - _moof 5y ago
    Oh, interesting. Well, my car at least has sensors—either that or I paid way too much for valve stems. :)
  - tschwimmer 5y ago
    This is true of cheaper cars, like my Honda. German cars like Audis and Porsches have direct TPMS that can actually tell you the exact tire pressure.
    - matli 5y ago
      Most Audis have indirect systems, but they have direct TPMS as an optional extra. At least that's the case on the European market, unsure about the US market. Some premium Audis also have loose wheel detection, which is based on a similar technology as the indirect TPMS.
paganel 5y ago
Maybe we should amend/change those laws back.
- cedilla 5y ago
  Perhaps we shouldn't. The EU estimates that half the fatalities on the road will be prevented with these systems. That's 10.000 lives each year. If that's true, increasing the cost marginally is more than worth it (and it really is marginally, budget cars have not noticably increased in price).
  - paganel 5y ago
    > budget cars have not noticably increased in price Actually, they did. The new Dacia Logan starts at 8500 euros, back in 2009 you could buy an entry-level one at about 5500-6000 euros, which would be around 6400-7000 euros in today's money. At those entry level prices those extra 1500-2000 euros do count.
  - AdrianB1 5y ago
    They probably estimated from behind a desk to justify some activity, not by research. Over 90% of the fatalities on the road in my country, that has the highest numbers in EU, come from excessive speed and ignoring road laws, something no current safety systems can change. Even airbags are completely useless in a front collision at 150km/h.
    - realityking 5y ago
      Good news, the EU realizes that as well. Starting May 2022 all new cars sold in the EU need to support Intelligent Speed Adaptation: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/european-union-speed-limiters-driver-monitors-2022/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/european-union-speed-limi...
- JTbane 5y ago
  Those systems are good for idiot-proofing. You don't want some idiot with underinflated tires running off the highway. In the same way, you don't want them to back over your kid in a parking lot.
fomine3 5y ago
I didn't know TPMS is mandatory in US and EU about a decade ago. It's still not mandatory in Japan so most cars except luxury or imported don't equip it. Maybe vehicle inspection program (shaken) for every two years helps to avoid using worn tires. Also maybe due to less people use run flat tires than US/EU, or roads in Japan is better.

clintonb 5y ago

Is the _market_ begging, or a few folks on the internet? The only folks I know that complain about technology in cars are a couple posters on internet forums.

blfr 5y ago
Yeah, I don't like how overcomplicated many products are becoming but even then wouldn't buy a car without at least AC and Bluetooth.
- tristan957 5y ago
  You could easily pick up an after market bluetooth-enabled product. A/C is definitely important however.
  - tim333 5y ago
    Though A/C doesn't really need much in the way of electronics.
- foobarian 5y ago
  My must-have now is the backup camera with steering integration. I can hook up a trailer like a god now.
  - moffkalast 5y ago
    "Where is your god now?" "Right behind you."
  - SamuelAdams 5y ago
    Actually new vehicles are legally required to have backup cameras. At least if they are sold in the US [1]. I would love to see a simple, back to the basics vehicle but there is so much regulation and safety requirements that it is unlikely for any basic vehicle to be sold in the US. [1]: https://abcnews.go.com/US/cars-us-now-required-backup-cameras/story?id=54854404 https://abcnews.go.com/US/cars-us-now-required-backup-camera...

kayone 5y ago

most things you mention are mandated by the government, you can't sell a car in any western market without tire pressure monitoring, stability control, back up camera etc. the manufacturers have no choice, it would be like suggesting they sell cars without seatbelts.

ohmaigad 5y ago
Back up cameras are not mandatory until May 2022 in the EU.
- paganel 5y ago
  We're already only a few months away from 2022, most (if not all) carmakers present on the EU market have included back-up cameras in their vehicles. I know that my brother's Dacia Logan built in 2019 already had one.
  - Hamuko 5y ago
    Backup cameras have been an optional extra for a long time sure, but I don't think I'm aware of any car that actually comes standard with one. Well, maybe a Mercedes-Benz S-Class. I do have a backup camera in my 10-year-old Benz, but I imagine that the original owner paid a four-digit amount of euros for it back in the day.
    - jmccaf 5y ago
      'Rear Visibility' is required in new cars in US by FMVSS 111. Test procedure mandates field of view to rear of vehicles during backing, that are practical to satisfy with cameras. mirrors would require like a periscope to satisfy.
      - Hamuko 5y ago
        Yeah, but the US isn't the EU.
    - deleted 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

bb123 5y ago

I think Dacia addresses this market pretty well already. However many of the things you’ve listed (cameras, TPMS, telemetry) are mandated by law in most regions.

carlmr 5y ago

Tire pressure sensors, ABS, ESP, airbags, etc. are compulsory in new cars in most countries.

liamwire 5y ago

I think you’re vastly a) underestimating the time it takes to bring a new product line all the way into production in the auto industry, and b) overestimating the true demand for such a product, Hacker News and adjacent crowds notwithstanding – peoples broadly have come to expect those simple features at practically every price point, as evidenced by the ubiquity of said features in the market.

throwawayjava 5y ago
B in particular. Products like the Yaris compete on price alone.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  And Yaris is already premium affordable car. Koreans are slightly below it and then cheap ones are India or specific models.

usmannk 5y ago

I can't imagine anyone would want the car you described, for market-sized values of "anyone"

ihalip 5y ago
The latest Dacia Sandero is selling better than all other models in its class for a few months now - even if it's basically a revamped last-gen Renault Clio with even lower quality interior and safety features. Some people prefer a basic, cheaper car.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  Is that because it's literally impossible to buy other cars since they have a chip backlog though? Is it worth redesigning a car for a trend that will be gone next year?
  - AdrianB1 5y ago
    No, it is because it is a lot cheaper and it can be bought by people that otherwise would not be able to buy a car at all. I know people who bought a Sandero for this reason and I was considering buying one one year ago, just before they announced an electric Dacia that I am still waiting for.
asdff 5y ago
Anyone driving a car thats older than 15 years old is already driving the car that OP is describing.
- LawnGnome 5y ago
  Sure, but do they actually want that car, or is that just what they have and can afford?
  - dropofwill 5y ago
    I personally have no interest in any upgrades over my 20 year old car. Maybe electric or no car at all if my living situation changed to support it. Obviously my hand will be forced soon enough as it slowly degrades.

lallysingh 5y ago

AFAIK, backup cams and TPMS are required. As for privacy, how do any of those features affect anything? But they're not changing their lineups, product design and marketing are expensive and take a long time. I don't think shrine expects the shortage to last that long.

Hamuko 5y ago
>AFAIK, backup cams and TPMS are required. Backup cameras are indeed mandated by law in the US for all new cars and have been since 2018.

Scene_Cast2 5y ago

There are two practical issues with your suggestion. One is that neither one of us have any idea of the electronics BOM breakdown between the various parts of the car, and whether the effect of shortage would be mitigated in a meaningful way if the entertainment stuff was simplified. And you can't legally sell a new car in the US without back-up cameras and tire pressure monitoring. The second issue is that re-designing that part of the car takes more than a year (probably years, given that you need to collaborate with business and marketing to fit it in the existing lineup and e.g. not have it be associated with down-market products)

octorian 5y ago
Especially since the chips experiencing horrible shortages are the cheap simple ones used for those dumb features no one even thinks about anymore.

throwawayjava 5y ago

By the time you finish the product design and manufacturing pipeline the chip shortage will be long over, and the market for a car without any modern amenities is not actually that big.

Etheryte 5y ago

It might make zero sense as a buyer but as a manufacturer it makes a lot of sense. I would guesstimate that most of the margin is made on luxury and add-on features. A good example of this is rims: larger rims don't change anything for a daily driver, but you can add them as an option for a considerable premium. Same for many other add-ons and they're still bought very often. In addition to this, while there definitely is a certain subset of the market that would appreciate a product with considerably fewer features, my gut feeling is that it's the same in automobiles as in tech — it's a very small part of the market.

chefkoch 5y ago

>A simple, basic car, with the ONLY electronic control being for: - Valve timing - Fuel injection - Oxygen and throttle - Emissions You still need electronics for - ABS - ESP - Airbags (- Diagnostics) Because these are mandated. Buy a cheap Dacia and there won't be much else except electric windows.

paganel 5y ago
I found that one can live without ESP. > Buy a cheap Dacia and there won't be much else except electric windows. As mandated by EU law the latest Dacia models already have most of those, they do have back up cameras, for example.
- NathanielK 5y ago
  > I found that one can live without ESP. True, but on average ESP is highly effective. Cars with ESP are correlated with 40-50% less running off the road or roll over crashes.[0] Carrie Underwood may sing about Jesus Taking the Wheel[1], but she really has GM Stabilitrak to thank. [0] https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/810794 https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lydBPm2KRaU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lydBPm2KRaU

windowsrookie 5y ago

In the United States backup cameras, tire pressure monitors, and electronic stability control are required by law. So out of your list that leaves.. GPS (already optional on most cars) Ass warmers (already optional on most cars) Telemetry (this could be removed from models that have it, not all cars sold today have telemetry) USB chargers (really don't think USB chargers are causing a production shortage at this moment) Proximity Sensors (already optional on budget cars) Keyless entry (could be removed, I doubt many people would buy a new car without keyless entry tho) Remote climate control (already optional on budget cars)

mrweasel 5y ago
I tried to buy a car without AC, but as it turns out that’s almost impossible. They had never imported that model without AC and the waiting time was pretty long, because they where not really built in large numbers. The models without AC mostly exist so they can produce ads saying “available from less than X“
- CamperBob2 5y ago
  What's the point of buying a car without A/C? You might save $1000 now, but you'll lose several thousand at trade-in time because no one else will want your car.
  - ok123456 5y ago
    No parasitic power losses and it's one less system that needs to be maintained.
    - tms2x2 5y ago
      AC is used for windshield defrost. I remember waiting for heat to defrost the windshield so I could see. AC defrost works in 10 sec.
    - nikau 5y ago
      The power loss from an AC compressor with the clutch disengaged is negligible. Modern AC also use variable displacement compressors which adjust load according to temperature, so once the cabin is cool they use a constant small amount of engine power rather than toggling to full power on and off like older designs.

mymythisisthis 5y ago

I think that keyless systems came after few incidents of people's key chains being too heavy and accidentally turning the car off when hitting a bump on the highway. Since most cars keys already, from the late 90s, had chips in them, to prevent theft. It was the next step to remove the superfluous metal part.

foobarian 5y ago
I love keyless entry. I can approach the car with two hands full of bags and still manage to open a door or trunk without having to free up a hand just so I can rummage through pockets to find the keys.

bserge 5y ago

I want something (exactly) like a Ford Escort 1988 model with the 1.6 diesel (Ford LT "Dagenham") engine. That thing would work long after a massive solar flare and nuclear apocalypse... If it wasn't rusted to shit. So yeah, better alloy/treatment for the frame :D

paxys 5y ago

Almost everything you have mentioned are expensive add-ons. Any budget base model car today comes only with stuff mandated by law and little else.

outside1234 5y ago

You probably want ABS as well - and then everyone else will want their favorite feature - and pretty soon we'll be where we are.

mlavin 5y ago

Buy an old Dodge W250 with a 12-valve Cummins 6BT, and enjoy mechanical fuel injection and 160 hp. No emissions control, no timing chain or belt, no overhead cams, no aluminum block or heads, ABS is optional, no airbags.

nikau 5y ago
And with that 15MPG fuel economy you get to give your maintenance savings to the gas station instead while you drive a slow uncomfortable car.

hristov 5y ago

First of all this "simple" car may end up being more expensive. Doing a lot of the things the old mechanical way requires a lot of labor and labor is expensive nowadays. Having to use turning wires and vacuum tubes for instrument clusters, and a bunch of pull wires for controls... Not only would that be expensive it would require skills and equipment long lost today. Oh and the wind shield wipers -- it is possible to power wind shield wipers mechanically but those were some very complex rube goldberg type mechanisms. Furthermore, this "simple" car will not last very long. People have forgotten that nowadays, but in the old times of "simple" mechanical cars, cars used to break down much more often and require much more skilled maintenance. Most people would not know how to use it. Do you think people will be able to handle an unassisted wheel? You know, actually use their muscles to turn the wheel when parking? How about unassisted brakes? You get into a dangerous situation, you slam on the brakes and then it turns out that you have to use your muscles to actually apply sufficient force. How about even getting into the car without a radio key fob. I very much doubt the majority of people will even know how to lock or unlock their rear doors without a central lock/unlock key. They will probably just leave their car unlocked. But most importantly, it wouldn't sell. Cars nowadays sell based on electronic features. You can see that from the commercials. Even fairly advanced features like navigation and parking sensors are considered a must have now.

WaitWaitWha 5y ago
That maybe true, but my anecdotal evidence is the opposite. > cars used to break down much more often and require much more skilled maintenance. My '78 John Deere 4640 (not a car I give you that) if it breaks down, I can fix it. If I cannot I can order the part. If I cannot, I can have the part made within a week. None of that is possible with a 2021 6145M. If it breaks, I have to sit and wait for JD to bless me with their part. I have less problems with non-electronic equipment than with the electronics enhanced ones. I venture it is very much the same with personal cars.
- markb139 5y ago
  Indeed. We have an aging Audi that has adaptive cruise control. Recently the radar unit failed. To get it replaced at a dealer will cost about half of what the car is worth.

estaseuropano 5y ago

That sounds like the Dacia and Tata approaches, although they sell addon packs as well.

Hamuko 5y ago
Dacia's addon packages are pretty tame since you need to get an addon package for an FM radio or for height-adjustable seats.

pomian 5y ago

I like your idea. The only reason all those accessories are mandated, is because the car industry made it so, thus increasing the value (profit) of a standard car. We could just as easily 'mandate', a different class of vehicle. Call it a classic class, or something. For example, motorcycles don't have back up cameras, air bags, etc. Back to the consumer having a choice. Similar to right to repair.

kayone 5y ago
> motorcycles don't have back up cameras, air bags, etc. why do you think that is?
- adolph 5y ago
  Organ donation lobby no doubt.
loeg 5y ago
Motorcycles don’t have a reverse gear and airbags only help if you have seatbelts. Not sure what your point is. Motorcycles are radically more dangerous for riders than passenger cars are for drivers.

oh_sigh 5y ago

This is a surefire way to sell hundreds of cars. Yes, hundreds!

javanscala 5y ago

I believe backup cameras and TPMS systems are now mandatory for US cars, so some of the complexity is mandated at least for “production” vehicles.

bigmattystyles 5y ago

Every time I hear about self-driving, I just think how bad every media system UI and functionality of BT, etc. in cars have ever been. I know it's probably different teams and much stricter standards for self-driving but all I ever think when using my Mazda's media center is 'fast chance I trust this team with self driving'. As far as media centers go, just make apple carplay / android auto standard...

elorant 5y ago

So what about airbags? Or ABS? Those are basic safety features that cannot work without electronics.

chrisseaton 5y ago

> tire pressure sensors ... luxury features These are to keep people alive! They aren't luxuries unless you think living is a luxury!

pickle-wizard 5y ago

Good news, you can buy this car today. It is called the Mitsubishi Mirage. Hardly anyone buys it because it is an absolutely dreadful car to drive.

k8sToGo 5y ago

You are welcome to buy the most basic Dacia at any time

moooo99 5y ago

I have a lot of thoughts about this comment, but here are my two cents. > There's a market for budget and privacy oriented customers that all carmakers seem to have ignored for two decades now. Give us a simple car with no GPS navigation, ass warmers, tire pressure sensors, telemetry, backup cameras, USB chargers, proximity detectors, traction control, keyless entry, remote climate control, etc. I feel like you're vastly overestimating the market size. Most non-tech people don't care about their privacy on their phone, their laptop or their TV. Most people don‘t even know that their car actually has the hardware to track them, why would they care about their privacy in their car? > I understand the re-engineering is a cost. But when you're simply removing existing features, this should be a fairly negligible one. I would not expect that to be fairly simple re-engineering. Many assistive technologies are mandatory in new vehicles (at least in some regions like the EU) such as automatic emergency calls, etc. Those are not standalone systems but they have many dependencies on sensors, etc. With the supply chains of traditional automakers, chances are the components necessary to integrate one mandatory system aren't even from the same supplier. This makes cherry picking features extremely hard if not impossible. > these carmakers have decided to throw up their hands and shut down production or pile up unfinished inventory waiting on chips. It makes precisely zero sense. I don't think it's coincidental that they decide to shut down a plant in Germany (besides the fact that Opel is originally German). In Germany we have something called "Kurzarbeitergeld" which is a support companies in trouble can receive in certain situations to support their employees. Employees continue to work a fraction of the time (50% Kurzarbeit basically means you only work half of your weekly hours, 100% Kurarbeit means you don't work at all for a certain period). The money the employees receive is largely paid for by the Government (the taxpayer). Usually Kurarbeit comes with a very strict set of rules, but thanks to covid those rules have been loosened a bit and especially carmakers (VW and BMW) take advantage of it (BMW for example sent many of their workers into Kurzarbeit but decided to pay billions of dividends to the Quandt family). So I suspect it was cheapest to shut down the Germany plant.

quacked 5y ago

I disagree with most of the people responding to you; I think if Toyota re-released the 2000 Tacoma with minor updates to the stereo system and a webcam on the back they'd do a billion in sales.

JudasGoat 5y ago

I personally wish that the infotainment part of the vehicle was a interface cable where the customer could freely choose the platform and also have an upgrade path in the future. Making cars more like cell phones means they will assume the lifetime of a cell phone.

dfadsadsf 5y ago
That’s already exist - Apple Carplay/Android Auto. Gets better with every iOS release and app update. First thing i do when i get in the car is plug my phone in and support for wireless Carplay will be major factor in my next car purchase.

jordache 5y ago

You assert removing those "luxury" items results in a car that is immune to chip supply issues.

cush 5y ago

Most of the tech results in absolutely critical safety features. Backup/blind spot cams, safer cruise control, breaking systems, etc etc. Nobody is begging for more dangerous cars.

00N8 5y ago

I like your thinking & I wish this was a thing, but even if it were legal to sell new cars w/out ABS, traction control, backup cameras, etc., it seems like anyone who would actually follow thru w/ buying a car like that could just buy a used car - or buy a car w/ a salvage title & replace everything to their exact preferences - for way less than a new car costs anyway

gnopgnip 5y ago

Some side by sides or UTVs are pretty close to what you are asking for. As these vehicles are not universally road legal they don't have many requirements, it is really up to the market. Many are under $10k and have relatively few electronics. Some of them can be operated on public roads at lower speeds. And when you are no longer designing a vehicle for 70-90+ speeds you can make a lot of other changes, engine 1/4 the size, lighter wheels, brakes, frame while still being able to tow as much as a mid size suv.

Grakel 5y ago

Completely agree and it's because they don't want to make great cars they want to make profit on add-ons.