10 ms·

Minecraft to add telemetry

108 points by wylie39 5y ago

crorella 5y ago
Telemetry per se is not a bad thing when you make it with privacy at the center of it. If you offer users the chance to opt-in/opt-out of logging and then REALLY respect that decision by first) not generating data when the user does not want to and second) not using the data for purposes the user does not sign up for (in downstream, analytics mostly) then telemetry can actually be beneficial to keep improving your product and features.
oauea 5y ago
Interesting design choice to have the website not be scrollable while showing content outside the fold. edit: Apparently this happens when running the "I don't care about cookies" browser extension, which is necessary to make the web somewhat usable after the EU's ridiculous ruling.
yuuta 5y ago
The key problem is that Mojang does not allow users to disable it.
- zimmund 5y ago
  In previous versions it was enough with snooperEnabled=false
josephcsible 5y ago
I'm not sure if there's an option to turn this off, but even if there isn't, since it's Java Edition, a mod could easily be created to turn it off anyway.
- juice_bus 5y ago
  It is still quite frustrating that it has come to the point that you may need to mod a game you purchased to avoid telemetry.
  - eclipxe 5y ago
    I don't really mind this. There is no impact to me by having this telemetry in place.
kortex 5y ago
> In this release, we are re-introducing diagnostic tracking, which was part of Minecraft: Java Edition until 2018. So it was there, they took it out, now it's back.
- foepys 5y ago
  If it was "game crashed, here's the stacktrace" before and now (or later) it's "player put 20 blocks of gold on server IP 127.0.0.1 with players foo, bar, baz present", it's a difference.
  - DHowett 5y ago
    “At this point the only implemented event is world load.” Are you certain about your assertion? Can you link to the document where you found it?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - II2II 5y ago
      It is a direct quote from the article: https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/article/minecraft-snapshot-21w38a https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/article/minecraft-snapshot-2...
  - buzzy_hacker 5y ago
    This is just speculation on your part? Is that all they were collecting before? And they are not collecting that now. They are collecting: launcher identifier user identitifer (XUID) client session id (changes on restart) world session id (changes per world load, to be reused for later events) game version operating system name and version Java runtime version if client or server is modded (same information as on crash logs) server type (single player, Realms or other) game mode
  - sandyarmstrong 5y ago
    Pretty sure GDPR and CCPA would prevent almost all of that from being stored.
joshghent 5y ago
Weird that a Microsoft product would get hard to disable telemetry… All jokes aside though, this doesn’t seem too bad and I can put myself in their shoes to understand why they want this data. It would be difficult to monotone this information (asides maybe a nice shiny new Surface machine).
rozab 5y ago
If the reasons they give for this were honest, you'd think their time would be better spent building the kind of extremely basic integration tests that would detect if, say, their world generation broke making the game unwinnable. https://bugs.mojang.com/browse/MC-236618 https://bugs.mojang.com/browse/MC-236618 Inflammatory zingers aside, I don't mind telemetry in a product like this and I'm sure I'd want it if I were working on it. But I'd want automated tests first. Factorio's approach seems enlightened, but very rare in the industry.
- diegoperini 5y ago
  No amount of integration tests can replicate millions of players, organically interacting with a video game. The state space is too large for that.
  - codetrotter 5y ago
    Yeah I thought so too, but reading the ticket they linked it looks like in a specific version of Minecraft, strongholds we’re not being generated at all? I only recently started playing Minecraft again after years. Last time I played it, The End did not exist yet in Minecraft. Back then we used to joke about “winning Minecraft”. Also, lava used to be an infinite resource if you built a cross and filled each corner with lava, you could then take infinite lava out from the middle which was neat. But they decided to remove that for some reason. Anyway, bugs happen and I think the GP is wrong to suggest that telemetry is not helpful. Being able to see how people actually use the software is how Microsoft has done it since many many years AFAIK. And it helps Microsoft to develop better software. There are many things I don’t like about Microsoft and I don’t use their Windows operating system almost at all. But I think they still got a lot right about how to develop software.
    - reificator 5y ago
      > Yeah I thought so too, but reading the ticket they linked it looks like in a specific version of Minecraft, strongholds we’re not being generated at all? That "specific version of Minecraft" being a weekly development snapshot and not a point release, to be clear.
belval 5y ago
Eh Minecraft is a video game, I just don't see the privacy risk with "typical" Windows-level telemetry happening there. At some point we have to accept that this data actually helps them fix real issues too, they're not monetizing their players directly with it.
- littlestymaar 5y ago
  > At some point we have to accept that this data actually helps them fix real issues too, they're not monetizing their players directly with it. What do we know about that? Microsoft have long lost the benefit of doubt with their shady data collection practices.
  - the-dude 5y ago
    What kind of evil things have they done with the data? Genuinely curious.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - bobmaxup 5y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Windows_10#Privacy_and_data_collection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Windows_10#Privac...
    - ginko 5y ago
      They're literally Microsoft. They've used up their lifetime supply of goodwill in the 90s.
    - pseudalopex 5y ago
      Collected it without consent.
- oneplane 5y ago
  I don't think what type of application it is determines if a person has a right to their privacy if they want it. Same goes for data, we don't have to "accept" anything. On the other hand, if it wasn't Microsoft's brand being connected to this and it wasn't called telemetry but "Automatic Bug Report Sharing" nobody would make a peep. The same goes for the kind of data or application: if people know what type of data would be shared and what it would look like, they might indeed understand that this isn't some nefarious profiling but just normal software improvement. If you are a developer, bug reports are nearly useless unless it's super repeatable with normal conditions and a few clearly defined steps... or if there is a useful automatic reporting system in place. But none of that reduces someone's expectation of privacy or acceptance of data sharing.
sneak 5y ago
Are there any products whatsoever that come out of Microsoft that don't contain spyware?
- genewitch 5y ago
  Comfort curve 4000 keyboard without the "driver" software?
- drusepth 5y ago
  It's not productive to be hyperbolic or reductive. There's a huge difference between telemetry and spyware, especially in this context.
  - JohnFen 5y ago
    It all depends on if informed consent was obtained first. Anything that is collecting data about me or my use of my machines without my informed consent is spying in any context.
  - sneak 5y ago
    When software transmits usage off device silently without consent from the user, in ways that benefit a remote party and do not benefit the user: that's spyware.
h54545nb 5y ago
Well I was going to re-install and check out new updates but I guess not anymore. I don't care how helpful it is, if there is no details on the exact specification of what data is shared and no way to disable it, I won't support the product.
- buzzy_hacker 5y ago
  The details are in the link? Contains following information: launcher identifier user identitifer (XUID) client session id (changes on restart) world session id (changes per world load, to be reused for later events) game version operating system name and version Java runtime version if client or server is modded (same information as on crash logs) server type (single player, Realms or other) game mode
vkoskiv 5y ago
The phrase "...to better understand our [users] and to improve their experience..." always rings alarm bells in my head. It's corporate lingo for "We want to increase profits by selling your private data for as long as we can get away with it."
- bastardoperator 5y ago
  This guy knows how to mine diamonds!
- pyr0hu 5y ago
  What private data would you get by tracking minecraft players?
  - sli 5y ago
    First one that immediately comes to mind is knowing when a person has leisure time. Since email is also known, this gets added to whatever body of data that's been collected on the person with that email. You can already make some inferences about a person just based on when they have leisure time, before you even add it to the existing body of data.
- pdpi 5y ago
  It's very generic phrasing, and some products do hide nefarious behaviour behind it, but it's also just an accurate description of the most innocent, straightforward use of telemetry out there. I, for one, can't think of a way to monetise Firebase stack traces. This is a game, so let's use other games as examples. Here's two pretty damn good talks from GDC about what the value telemetry brings to the table (the StS one goes into a whole bunch of other stuff that's sort of irrelevant but also serves to motivate the telemetry topic): * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urx7WQE6NY0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urx7WQE6NY0 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rqfbvnO_H0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rqfbvnO_H0
supperburg 5y ago
I really want to see a Minecraft that’s written in a fast language and also takes advantage of the huge amounts of storage and memory that we have now. The main problem with Minecraft is that you can see the end of the blocks even on high settings. Would also be cool to see slightly smaller blocks
- rndinternetguy 5y ago
  They did that - it's called Minecraft Bedrock and is written in c#. The problem is that it's not a 1 to 1 copy of Java edition and much of the functionality differs, so most PC players prefer the Java edition as it reflects the original gameplay.
  - xahrepap 5y ago
    it's actually C++. And it's the same codebase for all the consoles/mobile devices https://minecraftbedrock-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Minecraft https://minecraftbedrock-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Minecraft > This version is programmed in C++ and is available for a multitude of platforms including iOS, Android, VR, Xbox One, and Nintendo Switch. Since the Bedrock engine is a full rebuild different from the Java Edition, there is a noticeable difference between Bedrock and Java edition.
    - vitejose 5y ago
      I’m sure there are real performance improvements by moving to C++, but at the same time, I cannot believe how long this list of differences is. https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Official_pages/Parity_issue_list https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Official_pages/Parity_issu... It also doesn’t help that the two versions are separate purchases.
      - TheFreim 5y ago
        > It also doesn’t help that the two versions are separate purchases. Didn't bedrock edition come for free with windows 10? I have it but I am sure I never paid for it.
Shadonototra 5y ago
microsoft really turns everything it touches into a giant poop
zeta0134 5y ago
Maybe they'll notice that when I launch the game on Linux, I get about 10-20 FPS boost over Windows on identical hardware. I've always wondered about that; in theory shouldn't it be the reverse?
- bool3max 5y ago
  Probably the JVM implementation. I have observed the same effect on my system.
- half-kh-hacker 5y ago
  On top of the JVM implementation potentially being faster, OpenGL drivers on Linux are sometimes better than their Windows counterparts; especially with the less modern OGL that Minecraft uses
- frostirosti 5y ago
  I mean, it's the JVM in the end right? It depends on the JVM you're running on between windows and linux
altcognito 5y ago
Specifically they need to telemetry on the biggest change they made: how poorly does the new world generation and chunk loading work. This was a huge change and it is honestly pretty slow even on beefy boxes.
swalls 5y ago
Even if they're not doing anything nefarious with that data, I'm against telemetry other than crash reports because data driven design makes for boring art.
- skeaker 5y ago
  This assumes that the only bugs or other glaring issues that can be found with telemetry are crashes. There can be non-design-related problems with a program that negatively affect the experience without crashing it that can also only really be found with telemetry.
moogly 5y ago
Not related to telemetry, but I checked out Minecraft about less than a year ago for the first time in about 10 years (I had to dig out my old account details from an ancient email and migrate my account through some strange form) and spent a week playing it until I had enough, and I was shocked, absolutely shocked at how little has been added to the game during those 10 years. Sure, the fact that they have two divergent, separate games and are completely unable to move over to the C++ codebase and sunset the Java version due to the lack of modding (I remember the modding community screaming about needing a proper modding API back in the olden days, and Mojang hiring some of the Bukkit team back in 2012 to develop it, and it never came to fruition, still to this day), makes them having to do twice the work implementing stuff, but that's at least parallelizable work. I doubt the same people work on both codebases? I feel I need to sit down with someone who's working at Mojang and ask wtf is going on over there because it could be fascinating.
- Freskis 5y ago
  The amount of feature additions in the last 10 years has been enormous. Is it possible you were playing an old "world" which doesn't have the latest features? Or were playing an older version (which is supported in the latest launcher)?
  - moogly 5y ago
    No, I played a fresh game. Latest version at the time (1.16.3 & 1.16.4). Checked a wiki whilst playing so to make sure I wasn't missing major new stuff. I can't agree that the additions have been "enormous". Not for 10 years. And if you've seen one mineshaft or stronghold or underwater temple, you've seen them all. No variation. There's of course something to be said about staying true to the purity of the gameplay experience (like, say, DOTA2, but the depth and replayability there is in strategy, not content), but that feels like the wrong approach to a game that's in a large part about exploring like Minecraft.
zapzupnz 5y ago
I'm surprised it hadn't already, to be honest.

108 points by wylie39 5y ago

Telemetry per se is not a bad thing when you make it with privacy at the center of it. If you offer users the chance to opt-in/opt-out of logging and then REALLY respect that decision by first) not generating data when the user does not want to and second) not using the data for purposes the user does not sign up for (in downstream, analytics mostly) then telemetry can actually be beneficial to keep improving your product and features.

oauea 5y ago

Interesting design choice to have the website not be scrollable while showing content outside the fold. edit: Apparently this happens when running the "I don't care about cookies" browser extension, which is necessary to make the web somewhat usable after the EU's ridiculous ruling.

yuuta 5y ago

The key problem is that Mojang does not allow users to disable it.

zimmund 5y ago
In previous versions it was enough with snooperEnabled=false

josephcsible 5y ago

I'm not sure if there's an option to turn this off, but even if there isn't, since it's Java Edition, a mod could easily be created to turn it off anyway.

juice_bus 5y ago
It is still quite frustrating that it has come to the point that you may need to mod a game you purchased to avoid telemetry.
- eclipxe 5y ago
  I don't really mind this. There is no impact to me by having this telemetry in place.

kortex 5y ago

> In this release, we are re-introducing diagnostic tracking, which was part of Minecraft: Java Edition until 2018. So it was there, they took it out, now it's back.

foepys 5y ago
If it was "game crashed, here's the stacktrace" before and now (or later) it's "player put 20 blocks of gold on server IP 127.0.0.1 with players foo, bar, baz present", it's a difference.
- DHowett 5y ago
  “At this point the only implemented event is world load.” Are you certain about your assertion? Can you link to the document where you found it?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - II2II 5y ago
    It is a direct quote from the article: https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/article/minecraft-snapshot-21w38a https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/article/minecraft-snapshot-2...
- buzzy_hacker 5y ago
  This is just speculation on your part? Is that all they were collecting before? And they are not collecting that now. They are collecting: launcher identifier user identitifer (XUID) client session id (changes on restart) world session id (changes per world load, to be reused for later events) game version operating system name and version Java runtime version if client or server is modded (same information as on crash logs) server type (single player, Realms or other) game mode
- sandyarmstrong 5y ago
  Pretty sure GDPR and CCPA would prevent almost all of that from being stored.

joshghent 5y ago

Weird that a Microsoft product would get hard to disable telemetry… All jokes aside though, this doesn’t seem too bad and I can put myself in their shoes to understand why they want this data. It would be difficult to monotone this information (asides maybe a nice shiny new Surface machine).

rozab 5y ago

If the reasons they give for this were honest, you'd think their time would be better spent building the kind of extremely basic integration tests that would detect if, say, their world generation broke making the game unwinnable. https://bugs.mojang.com/browse/MC-236618 https://bugs.mojang.com/browse/MC-236618 Inflammatory zingers aside, I don't mind telemetry in a product like this and I'm sure I'd want it if I were working on it. But I'd want automated tests first. Factorio's approach seems enlightened, but very rare in the industry.

diegoperini 5y ago
No amount of integration tests can replicate millions of players, organically interacting with a video game. The state space is too large for that.
- codetrotter 5y ago
  Yeah I thought so too, but reading the ticket they linked it looks like in a specific version of Minecraft, strongholds we’re not being generated at all? I only recently started playing Minecraft again after years. Last time I played it, The End did not exist yet in Minecraft. Back then we used to joke about “winning Minecraft”. Also, lava used to be an infinite resource if you built a cross and filled each corner with lava, you could then take infinite lava out from the middle which was neat. But they decided to remove that for some reason. Anyway, bugs happen and I think the GP is wrong to suggest that telemetry is not helpful. Being able to see how people actually use the software is how Microsoft has done it since many many years AFAIK. And it helps Microsoft to develop better software. There are many things I don’t like about Microsoft and I don’t use their Windows operating system almost at all. But I think they still got a lot right about how to develop software.
  - reificator 5y ago
    > Yeah I thought so too, but reading the ticket they linked it looks like in a specific version of Minecraft, strongholds we’re not being generated at all? That "specific version of Minecraft" being a weekly development snapshot and not a point release, to be clear.

belval 5y ago

Eh Minecraft is a video game, I just don't see the privacy risk with "typical" Windows-level telemetry happening there. At some point we have to accept that this data actually helps them fix real issues too, they're not monetizing their players directly with it.

littlestymaar 5y ago
> At some point we have to accept that this data actually helps them fix real issues too, they're not monetizing their players directly with it. What do we know about that? Microsoft have long lost the benefit of doubt with their shady data collection practices.
- the-dude 5y ago
  What kind of evil things have they done with the data? Genuinely curious.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bobmaxup 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Windows_10#Privacy_and_data_collection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Windows_10#Privac...
  - ginko 5y ago
    They're literally Microsoft. They've used up their lifetime supply of goodwill in the 90s.
  - pseudalopex 5y ago
    Collected it without consent.
oneplane 5y ago
I don't think what type of application it is determines if a person has a right to their privacy if they want it. Same goes for data, we don't have to "accept" anything. On the other hand, if it wasn't Microsoft's brand being connected to this and it wasn't called telemetry but "Automatic Bug Report Sharing" nobody would make a peep. The same goes for the kind of data or application: if people know what type of data would be shared and what it would look like, they might indeed understand that this isn't some nefarious profiling but just normal software improvement. If you are a developer, bug reports are nearly useless unless it's super repeatable with normal conditions and a few clearly defined steps... or if there is a useful automatic reporting system in place. But none of that reduces someone's expectation of privacy or acceptance of data sharing.

sneak 5y ago

Are there any products whatsoever that come out of Microsoft that don't contain spyware?

genewitch 5y ago
Comfort curve 4000 keyboard without the "driver" software?
drusepth 5y ago
It's not productive to be hyperbolic or reductive. There's a huge difference between telemetry and spyware, especially in this context.
- JohnFen 5y ago
  It all depends on if informed consent was obtained first. Anything that is collecting data about me or my use of my machines without my informed consent is spying in any context.
- sneak 5y ago
  When software transmits usage off device silently without consent from the user, in ways that benefit a remote party and do not benefit the user: that's spyware.

h54545nb 5y ago

Well I was going to re-install and check out new updates but I guess not anymore. I don't care how helpful it is, if there is no details on the exact specification of what data is shared and no way to disable it, I won't support the product.

buzzy_hacker 5y ago
The details are in the link? Contains following information: launcher identifier user identitifer (XUID) client session id (changes on restart) world session id (changes per world load, to be reused for later events) game version operating system name and version Java runtime version if client or server is modded (same information as on crash logs) server type (single player, Realms or other) game mode

vkoskiv 5y ago

The phrase "...to better understand our [users] and to improve their experience..." always rings alarm bells in my head. It's corporate lingo for "We want to increase profits by selling your private data for as long as we can get away with it."

bastardoperator 5y ago
This guy knows how to mine diamonds!
pyr0hu 5y ago
What private data would you get by tracking minecraft players?
- sli 5y ago
  First one that immediately comes to mind is knowing when a person has leisure time. Since email is also known, this gets added to whatever body of data that's been collected on the person with that email. You can already make some inferences about a person just based on when they have leisure time, before you even add it to the existing body of data.
pdpi 5y ago
It's very generic phrasing, and some products do hide nefarious behaviour behind it, but it's also just an accurate description of the most innocent, straightforward use of telemetry out there. I, for one, can't think of a way to monetise Firebase stack traces. This is a game, so let's use other games as examples. Here's two pretty damn good talks from GDC about what the value telemetry brings to the table (the StS one goes into a whole bunch of other stuff that's sort of irrelevant but also serves to motivate the telemetry topic): * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urx7WQE6NY0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urx7WQE6NY0 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rqfbvnO_H0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rqfbvnO_H0

supperburg 5y ago

I really want to see a Minecraft that’s written in a fast language and also takes advantage of the huge amounts of storage and memory that we have now. The main problem with Minecraft is that you can see the end of the blocks even on high settings. Would also be cool to see slightly smaller blocks

rndinternetguy 5y ago
They did that - it's called Minecraft Bedrock and is written in c#. The problem is that it's not a 1 to 1 copy of Java edition and much of the functionality differs, so most PC players prefer the Java edition as it reflects the original gameplay.
- xahrepap 5y ago
  it's actually C++. And it's the same codebase for all the consoles/mobile devices https://minecraftbedrock-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Minecraft https://minecraftbedrock-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Minecraft > This version is programmed in C++ and is available for a multitude of platforms including iOS, Android, VR, Xbox One, and Nintendo Switch. Since the Bedrock engine is a full rebuild different from the Java Edition, there is a noticeable difference between Bedrock and Java edition.
  - vitejose 5y ago
    I’m sure there are real performance improvements by moving to C++, but at the same time, I cannot believe how long this list of differences is. https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Official_pages/Parity_issue_list https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Official_pages/Parity_issu... It also doesn’t help that the two versions are separate purchases.
    - TheFreim 5y ago
      > It also doesn’t help that the two versions are separate purchases. Didn't bedrock edition come for free with windows 10? I have it but I am sure I never paid for it.

Shadonototra 5y ago

microsoft really turns everything it touches into a giant poop

zeta0134 5y ago

Maybe they'll notice that when I launch the game on Linux, I get about 10-20 FPS boost over Windows on identical hardware. I've always wondered about that; in theory shouldn't it be the reverse?

bool3max 5y ago
Probably the JVM implementation. I have observed the same effect on my system.
half-kh-hacker 5y ago
On top of the JVM implementation potentially being faster, OpenGL drivers on Linux are sometimes better than their Windows counterparts; especially with the less modern OGL that Minecraft uses
frostirosti 5y ago
I mean, it's the JVM in the end right? It depends on the JVM you're running on between windows and linux

altcognito 5y ago

Specifically they need to telemetry on the biggest change they made: how poorly does the new world generation and chunk loading work. This was a huge change and it is honestly pretty slow even on beefy boxes.

swalls 5y ago

Even if they're not doing anything nefarious with that data, I'm against telemetry other than crash reports because data driven design makes for boring art.

skeaker 5y ago
This assumes that the only bugs or other glaring issues that can be found with telemetry are crashes. There can be non-design-related problems with a program that negatively affect the experience without crashing it that can also only really be found with telemetry.

moogly 5y ago

Not related to telemetry, but I checked out Minecraft about less than a year ago for the first time in about 10 years (I had to dig out my old account details from an ancient email and migrate my account through some strange form) and spent a week playing it until I had enough, and I was shocked, absolutely shocked at how little has been added to the game during those 10 years. Sure, the fact that they have two divergent, separate games and are completely unable to move over to the C++ codebase and sunset the Java version due to the lack of modding (I remember the modding community screaming about needing a proper modding API back in the olden days, and Mojang hiring some of the Bukkit team back in 2012 to develop it, and it never came to fruition, still to this day), makes them having to do twice the work implementing stuff, but that's at least parallelizable work. I doubt the same people work on both codebases? I feel I need to sit down with someone who's working at Mojang and ask wtf is going on over there because it could be fascinating.

Freskis 5y ago
The amount of feature additions in the last 10 years has been enormous. Is it possible you were playing an old "world" which doesn't have the latest features? Or were playing an older version (which is supported in the latest launcher)?
- moogly 5y ago
  No, I played a fresh game. Latest version at the time (1.16.3 & 1.16.4). Checked a wiki whilst playing so to make sure I wasn't missing major new stuff. I can't agree that the additions have been "enormous". Not for 10 years. And if you've seen one mineshaft or stronghold or underwater temple, you've seen them all. No variation. There's of course something to be said about staying true to the purity of the gameplay experience (like, say, DOTA2, but the depth and replayability there is in strategy, not content), but that feels like the wrong approach to a game that's in a large part about exploring like Minecraft.

zapzupnz 5y ago

I'm surprised it hadn't already, to be honest.