7 ms·

Had a bat in the house two weeks ago and our cats killed it. Contacted WA Department of Health and had to go through all the procedures. The amount of misinfor

Had a bat in the house two weeks ago and our cats killed it. Contacted WA Department of Health and had to go through all the procedures. The amount of misinformation and conflicting procedures we got from all the health professionals was staggering. Some said PEP right away, others told us no risk. Cats needed no boosters said the vet, but by law they did. Also had to quarantine the cats (120 days). Confusion all around and incredibly frustrating. We had the bat tested, it was a $100 + $75 to ship a frozen bat to another state. If you can’t afford that, you are hosed. Thankfully it was negative.

pirate787 5y ago
Are you still doing PEP? I feel like betting your life on a $100 test of a frozen, shipped bat is really risky.
- ranieuwe 5y ago
  No, DOH + us decided against PEP because the bat didn't get near us. They asked us in umpteen different ways whether or not that was the case. DOH seemed quite reluctant prescribing PEP mentioning too that it is quite an intensive treatment (who gives though, being dead being the other option).
jcun4128 5y ago
Kind of curious how that works, you just show up with a frozen bat in a box at USPS and they accept it?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- floatingatoll 5y ago
  Yes, if you comply with the relevant regulations. https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_008.htm#ep184109 https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_008.htm#ep184109 526.7 Dead Animals or Parts of Animals "GROUP A: Items that need to be refrigerated" "GROUP B: Items that must be dried" https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_003.htm#ep183811 https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_003.htm#ep183811 521 General Requirements "protection of animal specimens against spoilage" "Mailers are urged to work with postmasters" https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_027.htm#ep900096 https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_027.htm#ep900096 349.23 Dry Ice "containers that permit the release of carbon dioxide gas and conform to 49 CFR 173.217 and 175.10(a)(10)" https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52apxc_029.htm#ep1000804 https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52apxc_029.htm#ep1000804 USPS Packaging Instruction 9A "must be clearly marked “Carbon Dioxide Solid, UN1845” Or “Dry Ice, UN1845”"
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Like a lot of things in life, it probably falls under "don't ask, don't tell", probably with some dry ice thrown in for good measure.
  - floatingatoll 5y ago
    Mailing dry ice without following proper procedures as you describe can result in you being fined or arrested by the postal service, especially if your unlabeled dry ice injures a postal worker. Please don't put human beings at risk for the sake of laziness in mailing. There are good reasons for the rules, even if they're frustrating.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      I knew there would be a comment like this. Excuse my while my eyes roll several loops in my skull. Yes, mailing stuff that requires labeling without those labels can get you in deep shit (because the feds don't really do shallow shit). That doesn't mean everyone doesn't do it left and right. Go buy some refrigerated food or medication off eBay and see how it ships. Heck, a certain country will ship you all manner of truly dangerous things in nothing more than a bubble wrap envelope. The amount of dry ice required to refrigerate a bat (or tub of caviar, or niche cheese, or whatever) is easy to package safely. Throw it in a rag in a strofoam temp cooler. Do a non-terrible job boxing it up and it won't get out in any form other than as a gas. This is one of the many cases where the behavior of the average individual is not in accordance with the law and (as 20+yr of eCommerce have shown us) nothing bad happens except in cases of exceptional stupidity. I know that "but the law" and assumptions of stupidity of the general public make for easy points around here but neither complaint is materially relevant in this situation.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - floatingatoll 5y ago
        Yes, people knowingly set aside safety guidelines for their personal convenience all the time. Many NTSB investigations end up saying “pilot apparently skipped pre-flight checklist”. As with all such things, it’s fine until it’s not, and when something does eventually go wrong (and it will), the blame will rest on your shoulders for taking safety shortcuts. So I choose not to gamble the safety of others to avoid having to label a package as Dry Ice, even if others take the gamble instead.
- dangrossman 5y ago
  Is it any different from Omaha Steaks shipping you some frozen steaks and burgers? As long as your box doesn't leak or smell, nobody at USPS is going to open it.
  - floatingatoll 5y ago
    Yes. Omaha Steaks conform to USDA regulations and are regulated under 55 Meats, rather than 52 Animals: https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_011.htm https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_011.htm However, there is 349.23 Dry Ice, which applies to any package using it, whether meat or animal or other: https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_027.htm#ep900096 https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_027.htm#ep900096 Note that USPS also requires you to declare if a package contains Perishable or Hazardous goods, and label it clearly if it's being mailed under 52 Animals: https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_004.htm https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_004.htm If you fail to do so, they can in theory fine you or have you arrested — especially for failing to declare dry ice, which falls under Hazard Class 9, the "miscellaneous" class: https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_004.htm https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_004.htm "Anyone who mails, or causes to be mailed, a nonmailable or improperly packaged hazardous material can be subject to legal penalties (i.e., fines and/or imprisonment)"
    - mikestew 5y ago
      and are regulated under 55 Meats, rather than 52 Animals Talk about your "you must be fun at parties"; and this isn't necessarily directed at you, floatingatoll, but when I see comments like this I often wonder if it's a case of "memorizes USPS shipping rules for fun" or more likely "worked on a contract once where we had to codify USPS shipping rules into an application, so I don't have them memorized but sure as hell know where to look". For example, I've written code for computers to consume for the vast majority of my career. But go ahead and ask me the finer points of cellophane manufacturing...please, I've been waiting years for it to come up in conversation.
      - teachrdan 5y ago
        I would like to sign up for cellophane facts.
- silicon2401 5y ago
  Not an answer, but there was an excellent thread about this topic this year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28210780 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28210780
- ranieuwe 5y ago
  Yup. Had to pack bat in a freezer ziploc and stick it in the freezer. Then when shipping, pack it in another freezer ziploc with paper towels (for moisture) and a blue ice pack (no dry ice). After that, put in a box with a UN 3373 category B label affixed to it. Add contents list to the box as required by the label and after that drop off with your mail company of choice (UPS in our case). Seems to be a common thing, no one bat an eye :)
  - floatingatoll 5y ago
    Ooo, fancy. "Biological Substance"! I missed that USPS would classify this as infectious matter, which is where they're hiding that UN requirement.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
steviedotboston 5y ago
DEAD BAT DO NOT EAT
garren 5y ago
A similar incident happened to me about two years ago. Cats caught a bat around mid-late August, proudly brought it in and dropped it by me. Still kicking, the bat took off and flew into a ceiling fan. I called animal control, they were out in about 30min to pick it up. Called the vet, cats were up to date on their vax, recommended boosters, explained that a 45 day quarantine was required. Animal control got back in touch about 48 hours later with the results - negative. I didn’t need to pay anything. I’m also in the Mountain West, and although I’ve never encountered a rabid animal, apparently rabid skunks, bats, and raccoons aren’t uncommon around here. Animal control responds to these incidents pretty quickly.
- subsubzero 5y ago
  I know skunks are one of the biggest carriers of rabies, and they are found even in big cities. A housecat that roams outside and has a scuffle with one could easily bring it home if the cat has not had its shots.
tclancy 5y ago
If it makes you feel any better, NH is about the same. We had a cat kill a bat overnight (except not all the way dead, as I found out). I wound up boxing the thing, leaving it in a cooler we never used any more and then driving it to the state hospital for testing because Fish and Game called me and walked me through an extensive flow chart style quiz about whether I needed to have it tested or not. Easily 20 questions, Choose-Your-Own-Adventure-style. Except the last goddamn question was, "Was the animal you encountered a bat? If so, yes, get it tested".
- dylan604 5y ago
  Maybe the need to think about rearranging the order of the questions. Seems like #20 => #1 would simplify a lot of things.
  - jrs235 5y ago
    At first I thought the same thing. But think about it a little more and it's not that simple... (which is why I think others downvoted you).
    - tclancy 5y ago
      No, if it seems like it wasn't that simple I told it poorly. It was definitely that simple.
filoeleven 5y ago
Similar story to friends of mine, only in their case the bat tested positive. They had to get the full series of shots. Their cat who found the bat was already vaccinated but they had to take it to the vet for a booster. The cat does not travel well, so it got freaked out in the car and was sick, including foaming at the mouth. There was a new tech at the vet who I guess hadn’t been informed of the situation, so when my friends walked in and said “hi, our cat needs a rabies booster,” the tech was suitably freaked out for the 30 seconds it took them to explain.
robotnixon 5y ago
There was a This American Life episode with a story about a woman attacked by a rabid raccoon. She called a few local health departments but since it was the weekend they were all closed so she left voicemails. She then went to the ER and was told that she had 10-14 days to get vaccinated. Luckily one of the health departments called back and let her know she actually needed to get a rabies vaccination within 72 hours of the attack, which means she needed it today. She was referred to her county's health department who informed her that they wanted to test the raccoon for rabies first and the closest lab was 2 hours away. After pleading with them they referred her to a hospital in another county, who refused to give it to her because she was from a different county. After pleading with them they finally gave her the shot, but in the wrong place. She then had to fight with eight separate doctors to give her the 5 follow-up shots.
jweir 5y ago
Well a buddy of mine found a bat in the backyard here in Portland. Went to dispose of it and the thing was still alive! He called the Audubon Society – they wanted him to bring it in for rehab, which meant no rabies test. The animal can only be tested if dead. The bad had an accident, died, and he sent it to Oregon State to be tested. It was positive! Lesson, do not handle bats without extreme care, make sure your pets are vaccinated, and get the creature tested. https://www.multco.us/multnomah-county/news/rabid-bat-found-northeast-portland https://www.multco.us/multnomah-county/news/rabid-bat-found-...
- ranieuwe 5y ago
  Ours was sent to Oregon State too, they got back to us with test results within 6 hours of delivery - 20 hours after I shipped it from the Seattle area. Was pretty impressive :-)
74d-fe6-2c6 5y ago
just today I was thinking about how more and more organisations show signs of systemtaic overload and cluelessness. even if you pay specifically for a service supposed to handle situations and shield you from further complications of specific incidences there is no guarantee they know what they are doing or - and that's one of the core reasons for this class of problems - know what their subcontractors are doing. often those don't even care because they themselves are shielded by other insurances and the responsibilites are passed on endlessly like a hot potato. a similar very recent problem would be the various supply chain issues we are experiencing. nobody seems to have close grip on things anymore. like playing the telephone game we can just hope the message is passed on uncurropted and the answer doesn't get stuck somewhere or also corrupted which might trigger just the next misunderstanding. it's totally nuts.

pirate787 5y ago

Are you still doing PEP? I feel like betting your life on a $100 test of a frozen, shipped bat is really risky.

ranieuwe 5y ago
No, DOH + us decided against PEP because the bat didn't get near us. They asked us in umpteen different ways whether or not that was the case. DOH seemed quite reluctant prescribing PEP mentioning too that it is quite an intensive treatment (who gives though, being dead being the other option).

jcun4128 5y ago

Kind of curious how that works, you just show up with a frozen bat in a box at USPS and they accept it?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
floatingatoll 5y ago
Yes, if you comply with the relevant regulations. https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_008.htm#ep184109 https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_008.htm#ep184109 526.7 Dead Animals or Parts of Animals "GROUP A: Items that need to be refrigerated" "GROUP B: Items that must be dried" https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_003.htm#ep183811 https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_003.htm#ep183811 521 General Requirements "protection of animal specimens against spoilage" "Mailers are urged to work with postmasters" https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_027.htm#ep900096 https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_027.htm#ep900096 349.23 Dry Ice "containers that permit the release of carbon dioxide gas and conform to 49 CFR 173.217 and 175.10(a)(10)" https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52apxc_029.htm#ep1000804 https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52apxc_029.htm#ep1000804 USPS Packaging Instruction 9A "must be clearly marked “Carbon Dioxide Solid, UN1845” Or “Dry Ice, UN1845”"
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
Like a lot of things in life, it probably falls under "don't ask, don't tell", probably with some dry ice thrown in for good measure.
- floatingatoll 5y ago
  Mailing dry ice without following proper procedures as you describe can result in you being fined or arrested by the postal service, especially if your unlabeled dry ice injures a postal worker. Please don't put human beings at risk for the sake of laziness in mailing. There are good reasons for the rules, even if they're frustrating.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    I knew there would be a comment like this. Excuse my while my eyes roll several loops in my skull. Yes, mailing stuff that requires labeling without those labels can get you in deep shit (because the feds don't really do shallow shit). That doesn't mean everyone doesn't do it left and right. Go buy some refrigerated food or medication off eBay and see how it ships. Heck, a certain country will ship you all manner of truly dangerous things in nothing more than a bubble wrap envelope. The amount of dry ice required to refrigerate a bat (or tub of caviar, or niche cheese, or whatever) is easy to package safely. Throw it in a rag in a strofoam temp cooler. Do a non-terrible job boxing it up and it won't get out in any form other than as a gas. This is one of the many cases where the behavior of the average individual is not in accordance with the law and (as 20+yr of eCommerce have shown us) nothing bad happens except in cases of exceptional stupidity. I know that "but the law" and assumptions of stupidity of the general public make for easy points around here but neither complaint is materially relevant in this situation.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - floatingatoll 5y ago
      Yes, people knowingly set aside safety guidelines for their personal convenience all the time. Many NTSB investigations end up saying “pilot apparently skipped pre-flight checklist”. As with all such things, it’s fine until it’s not, and when something does eventually go wrong (and it will), the blame will rest on your shoulders for taking safety shortcuts. So I choose not to gamble the safety of others to avoid having to label a package as Dry Ice, even if others take the gamble instead.
dangrossman 5y ago
Is it any different from Omaha Steaks shipping you some frozen steaks and burgers? As long as your box doesn't leak or smell, nobody at USPS is going to open it.
- floatingatoll 5y ago
  Yes. Omaha Steaks conform to USDA regulations and are regulated under 55 Meats, rather than 52 Animals: https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_011.htm https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_011.htm However, there is 349.23 Dry Ice, which applies to any package using it, whether meat or animal or other: https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_027.htm#ep900096 https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_027.htm#ep900096 Note that USPS also requires you to declare if a package contains Perishable or Hazardous goods, and label it clearly if it's being mailed under 52 Animals: https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_004.htm https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_004.htm If you fail to do so, they can in theory fine you or have you arrested — especially for failing to declare dry ice, which falls under Hazard Class 9, the "miscellaneous" class: https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_004.htm https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_004.htm "Anyone who mails, or causes to be mailed, a nonmailable or improperly packaged hazardous material can be subject to legal penalties (i.e., fines and/or imprisonment)"
  - mikestew 5y ago
    and are regulated under 55 Meats, rather than 52 Animals Talk about your "you must be fun at parties"; and this isn't necessarily directed at you, floatingatoll, but when I see comments like this I often wonder if it's a case of "memorizes USPS shipping rules for fun" or more likely "worked on a contract once where we had to codify USPS shipping rules into an application, so I don't have them memorized but sure as hell know where to look". For example, I've written code for computers to consume for the vast majority of my career. But go ahead and ask me the finer points of cellophane manufacturing...please, I've been waiting years for it to come up in conversation.
    - teachrdan 5y ago
      I would like to sign up for cellophane facts.
silicon2401 5y ago
Not an answer, but there was an excellent thread about this topic this year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28210780 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28210780
ranieuwe 5y ago
Yup. Had to pack bat in a freezer ziploc and stick it in the freezer. Then when shipping, pack it in another freezer ziploc with paper towels (for moisture) and a blue ice pack (no dry ice). After that, put in a box with a UN 3373 category B label affixed to it. Add contents list to the box as required by the label and after that drop off with your mail company of choice (UPS in our case). Seems to be a common thing, no one bat an eye :)
- floatingatoll 5y ago
  Ooo, fancy. "Biological Substance"! I missed that USPS would classify this as infectious matter, which is where they're hiding that UN requirement.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

steviedotboston 5y ago

DEAD BAT DO NOT EAT

garren 5y ago

A similar incident happened to me about two years ago. Cats caught a bat around mid-late August, proudly brought it in and dropped it by me. Still kicking, the bat took off and flew into a ceiling fan. I called animal control, they were out in about 30min to pick it up. Called the vet, cats were up to date on their vax, recommended boosters, explained that a 45 day quarantine was required. Animal control got back in touch about 48 hours later with the results - negative. I didn’t need to pay anything. I’m also in the Mountain West, and although I’ve never encountered a rabid animal, apparently rabid skunks, bats, and raccoons aren’t uncommon around here. Animal control responds to these incidents pretty quickly.

subsubzero 5y ago
I know skunks are one of the biggest carriers of rabies, and they are found even in big cities. A housecat that roams outside and has a scuffle with one could easily bring it home if the cat has not had its shots.

tclancy 5y ago

If it makes you feel any better, NH is about the same. We had a cat kill a bat overnight (except not all the way dead, as I found out). I wound up boxing the thing, leaving it in a cooler we never used any more and then driving it to the state hospital for testing because Fish and Game called me and walked me through an extensive flow chart style quiz about whether I needed to have it tested or not. Easily 20 questions, Choose-Your-Own-Adventure-style. Except the last goddamn question was, "Was the animal you encountered a bat? If so, yes, get it tested".

dylan604 5y ago
Maybe the need to think about rearranging the order of the questions. Seems like #20 => #1 would simplify a lot of things.
- jrs235 5y ago
  At first I thought the same thing. But think about it a little more and it's not that simple... (which is why I think others downvoted you).
  - tclancy 5y ago
    No, if it seems like it wasn't that simple I told it poorly. It was definitely that simple.

filoeleven 5y ago

Similar story to friends of mine, only in their case the bat tested positive. They had to get the full series of shots. Their cat who found the bat was already vaccinated but they had to take it to the vet for a booster. The cat does not travel well, so it got freaked out in the car and was sick, including foaming at the mouth. There was a new tech at the vet who I guess hadn’t been informed of the situation, so when my friends walked in and said “hi, our cat needs a rabies booster,” the tech was suitably freaked out for the 30 seconds it took them to explain.

robotnixon 5y ago

There was a This American Life episode with a story about a woman attacked by a rabid raccoon. She called a few local health departments but since it was the weekend they were all closed so she left voicemails. She then went to the ER and was told that she had 10-14 days to get vaccinated. Luckily one of the health departments called back and let her know she actually needed to get a rabies vaccination within 72 hours of the attack, which means she needed it today. She was referred to her county's health department who informed her that they wanted to test the raccoon for rabies first and the closest lab was 2 hours away. After pleading with them they referred her to a hospital in another county, who refused to give it to her because she was from a different county. After pleading with them they finally gave her the shot, but in the wrong place. She then had to fight with eight separate doctors to give her the 5 follow-up shots.

jweir 5y ago

Well a buddy of mine found a bat in the backyard here in Portland. Went to dispose of it and the thing was still alive! He called the Audubon Society – they wanted him to bring it in for rehab, which meant no rabies test. The animal can only be tested if dead. The bad had an accident, died, and he sent it to Oregon State to be tested. It was positive! Lesson, do not handle bats without extreme care, make sure your pets are vaccinated, and get the creature tested. https://www.multco.us/multnomah-county/news/rabid-bat-found-northeast-portland https://www.multco.us/multnomah-county/news/rabid-bat-found-...

ranieuwe 5y ago
Ours was sent to Oregon State too, they got back to us with test results within 6 hours of delivery - 20 hours after I shipped it from the Seattle area. Was pretty impressive :-)

74d-fe6-2c6 5y ago

just today I was thinking about how more and more organisations show signs of systemtaic overload and cluelessness. even if you pay specifically for a service supposed to handle situations and shield you from further complications of specific incidences there is no guarantee they know what they are doing or - and that's one of the core reasons for this class of problems - know what their subcontractors are doing. often those don't even care because they themselves are shielded by other insurances and the responsibilites are passed on endlessly like a hot potato. a similar very recent problem would be the various supply chain issues we are experiencing. nobody seems to have close grip on things anymore. like playing the telephone game we can just hope the message is passed on uncurropted and the answer doesn't get stuck somewhere or also corrupted which might trigger just the next misunderstanding. it's totally nuts.