8 ms·

That "vaccine granted immunity" was a big one, it rapidly became less symptoms, and from that surreptitiously changed again to well you'll still have a week of

That "vaccine granted immunity" was a big one, it rapidly became less symptoms, and from that surreptitiously changed again to well you'll still have a week of feeling like shit if you catch covid, but you'll be less likely to die from it. Then there's whatever percent of vaccinated that would have allowed the fabled reopen, we engaged trough most of these metrics, and we're still far from normalcy. Heck my vaccine passport has a very clear, very bold expiry date on it, talk of normalcy are nonsense. Oh and there's that "let's not tell peasants masks are useful as not to cause shortages to professionals." Maybe warranted, given what happened with hoarders and toilet paper, but still definitely a lie. edit: jesus christ look at the mess of downvotes this whole thread attracted, replies included, this place is populated by people more toxic than facebook's and more sensitive than twitter's. and you wonder why the content platform are in full on containment mode. truth is you're bringing your corporate dystopia unto yourself.

creaturemachine 5y ago
The science is evolving, and these differences from a year ago are proof of that. I don't think the vaccine makers were very proud to admit that their wonderdrug wasn't what it was promised to be, but that's the way it is. The only remaining choice for anti-vaxxers in the face of increasingly contagious variants is take the shot or risk death. Your call.
- cies 5y ago
  > The science is evolving Science got massively oversold. Who did that? Who benefits from that? > The only remaining choice for anti-vaxxers in the face of increasingly contagious variants is take the shot or risk death. Your call. I think if you call anyone hesitant to take these shots an anti-vaxxer, you contribute to making the narative so everything extreme. Many that are "c19 vaccine hesitant" are vaccinating their children on the locally standard schedule. It is just that this c19 vaccine is a bit different: did not yet stand the test of time and it is in many cases a whole new therapy (mRNA therapy's debut). > take the shot or risk death This sounds so dramatic. This choice is everywhere, just not with so much media attention. Diets, traffic accidents, extreme sports, ... I think we should use vaccines only to protect those at risk, and/or those who want protection by it. Once they have the shot it's over. The media is pushing a story that we need to all get vaccinated to protect others. I think, given the research, that this is never going to happen (virus will stay in corners of the world with unvaccinated people, virus will have new variants: virus will stay with us).
  - Reason077 5y ago
    > "It is just that this c19 vaccine is a bit different: did not yet stand the test of time and it is in many cases a whole new therapy (mRNA therapy's debut)." At this point, surely the various c19 vaccines are the most highly scrutinised and widely administered vaccines developed in the past 50 years or so. More than 6 billion shots administered, and counting. How much more time do you need?
    - pigeonhole123 5y ago
      Even Pfizer’s own RCT showed no benefit for all cause mortality at six months. Covid deaths were replaced by CVD deaths
      - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
        > Even Pfizer’s own RCT showed no benefit for all cause mortality at six months There are countries that have had Pfizer rollouts to millions of people over the last 8 months ( 1) . If this were true in the real world, the excess mortality would have shown up in the real-world data by now. It has not. it's rubbish. You tout this false and trivially falsifiable "fact" repeatedly. Quit it. https://ijhpr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13584-021-00440-6 https://ijhpr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13584-021-...
        pigeonhole123 5y ago
        Quoting the vaccine manufacturer’s own gold standard study is “rubbish”. I honestly did not see that one coming.
        actually_a_dog 5y ago
        You're misrepresenting the study. That study never had enough statistical power to detect a reduction in deaths. It's disingenuous to simply cry "no reduction in deaths! manufacturer study!" https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-964291665925 https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-964291665925
LeoPanthera 5y ago
> That vaccine granted immunity was a big one, it rapidly became less symptoms, and from that surreptitiously changed again to well you'll still have a week of feeling like shit, but you'll be less likely to die from it. You're being downvoted but the medical industry in the US honestly has terrible PR. It's not surprising that people misunderstand. Vaccines do grant immunity, but immunity doesn't mean "you cannot catch the virus" and it never has. It means that your immune system will recognise the virus immediately and fight it. This is the same thing as "less symptoms". "A week of feeling like shit" has nothing to do with the virus at all, they're not symptoms of an infection that you are feeling, they are side effects of your immune system learning to fight the virus that the vaccine is teaching it about. All, or at least most, vaccines require occasional boosters, but if everyone is vaccinated when they should be, the virus will die out before any significant number of further infections can occur, as has now happened with Polio and Smallpox. So in short: You were not lied to, but you absolutely should have had this explained to you with greater clarity.
- oceanplexian 5y ago
  If vaccines don’t provide immunity then what’s the point of all the public policy such as vaccine passports, etc? If you can still catch and spread it those who are vaccinated should be subject to the same testing requirements as the unvaccinated.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    > If you can still catch and spread it those who are vaccinated should be subject to the same testing requirements as the unvaccinated. You're misunderstanding the precise use of the word "can" here. I can win the lottery. I can win a coin toss. But the odds are drastically different, and so en masse, we should plan and test much more for the "much more likely" case than the other. Now, vaccination against COVID gives better odds of not catching and not spreading COVID. You still _can_, though. > If vaccines don’t provide immunity But they do, statistically they provide a high level of immunity. Not 100% though. You know this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28699699 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28699699 So why are you contradicting yourself?
ZoomerCretin 5y ago
Immunity: the ability of an organism to resist a particular infection or toxin by the action of specific antibodies or sensitized white blood cells. The vaccine gives immunity, by the definition of what immunity is. The reduced efficacy was communicated as soon as it was confirmed. There was no lie. This is how science occurs. The best conclusion was given from the data at the time. Regarding the metrics for vaccination rates that would allow full normalcy: they existed before the Delta variant, and unfortunately this new variant has made herd immunity impossible.
YossarianFrPrez 5y ago
> That [the] vaccine granted immunity. Vaccines work by stimulating the immune system. "Immunity" in the context of vaccines does not, and has never meant something like 'diplomatic immunity.' Instead, it means that a vaccinated person's body has the tools to fight off the virus. Which looks like reduced symptoms and drastically reduced likelihood of death from the virus. Mild side effects are expected. [1] This has been true since vaccines were first discovered /invented, and will continue to be true. Measles, Smallpox, Polio, etc. Perhaps many people misunderstood what "immunity" meant... But that initial misunderstanding doesn't mean that they were being lied to by doctors and scientists. What it really means is that they were unintentionally lying to themselves about the definition of immunity. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/why-vaccinate/vaccine-decision.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/why-vaccinate/vaccine-d...
- JuliusPullo 5y ago
  The Covid vaccine does not work by directly stimulating the immune system, like all other vaccines do. Instead, it inserts synthetic molecules into some cells, turning them into little machines that constantly produce a toxin that is released into the blood stream. The immune system is supposed to learn to fight this toxin. This has NEVER before been done in any other vaccine. We could speculate for hours about what could go wrong, but for the moment lets just say that myocarditis and blood clots are definitely NOT mild side effects.
  - edmundsauto 5y ago
    Myocarditis and blood clots are also (more frequently) side effects from getting C19. Just because it's never been done before does not mean we have no idea what it will or won't do. Biology is uncertain, but it's important to examine the vaccine risks AGAINST COVID RISKS. Nothing is no-risk, including the vaccine. However, the accurate comparison is getting covid without the vax, versus with the vax. Looking at the vaccine risks in isolation is somewhere between misleading and dishonest.
    - effie 5y ago
orangepurple 5y ago
Innate immunity in a world of many unvaccinated individuals is going to gradually reduce this virus to another variant of the common cold. In the mean time, the vaccinated like myself are going to harbor and evolve dangerous variants which will kill many of the unvaccinated. The unvaccinated are the real victims here, since the vaccinated ones won't help the virus become more benign as effectively as those who develop innate immunity against it.
- effie 5y ago
  Even if you are eventually proven correct (vaccinated putting pressure on the virus to get more dangerous), I think your personal decision to favour personal health to public health is the correct one. Everybody should primarily watch their own interests and their own health. On the other hand, public policy leading to creation of more dangerous viruses would be a disaster and if that happens, it should be stopped.
KVFinn 5y ago
>That vaccine granted immunity was a big one, it rapidly became less symptoms, and from that surreptitiously changed again to well you'll still have a week of feeling like shit, but you'll be less likely to die from it. Please look up the medical definition of immunity.
- avereveard 5y ago
  no? I know very well the definition. that why I'm stating that the way it was worded at the beginning was a big fat lie, told to the public to coerce compliance, and latter reduced to a more realistic target to manage expectations.
  - Tostino 5y ago
    You are entirely ignoring the point the other commenter made about delta changing things. You are simply repeating talking points I've heard over and over, it's exhausting.
    - avereveard 5y ago
      you are willfully merging two separate topic into one trying to shut down an argument by adjacency, as if the trite answers you bring could move the discussion forward. do you have points of your own that relate to the topic at hand?
- mythrwy 5y ago
  I'd be curious if the definition has changed in the past year (word redefinition seems to a thing lately and it is Literally not for the better!). Immunity obviously means being immune. Immune has a specific definition and that is not "helps sometimes". https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/immune https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/immu... Resistance or, decreased susceptibility, or whatever other term you wish to use, is not the same as immunity. Otherwise what word do we use for "immunity" now?
jjwiseman 5y ago
From reading comments, it seems like a lot of people don't understand that Delta changed things. In a world without Delta, the vaccines did do an incredible job of actually preventing infection. "Effectiveness [against confirmed infection] remained above 95% regardless of age group, sex, race, or presence of comorbidities."[1] But that study used data up to March 2021, which means mostly non-Delta variants. Against Delta, vaccine effectiveness in preventing infection might be closer to 50%+ (e.g. [2]) -- which is still very effective! It's just not effective as we would like. "Hi, here's a shot that cuts your odds of getting infected in half. Do you want it?" Um, yes please. You have to change your behavior when the facts in the world change. The messaging had to change with the facts. Of course you can't use the old vaccination thresholds for re-opening if the virus is now infecting 10x (50% vs. 95%) as many vaccinated people as it was 2 months ago, that doesn't make sense. The virus moved the goalposts. You can be angry about that, but that's reality. We are so lucky that despite everything, the vaccines are still incredibly effective at keeping you from dying if you get COVID. I'm actually very angry at how the mask messaging was handled (there should absolutely be consequences for that), but it doesn't matter how angry I am, if I don't get vaccinated I am irrationally refusing the single best way to avoid dying in this pandemic. [1] https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M21-1577 https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M21-1577 [2] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e4.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e4.htm
- chana_masala 5y ago
  Delta was encouraged through the evolutionary pressure from a leaky vaccine
  - meepmorp 5y ago
    Bullshit. It came from India, and the unchecked spread of the virus through the largely unvaccinated population. Evolutionary pressure is exerted by all immune responses, not just ones conditioned by vaccines.
    - chana_masala 5y ago
      > Could some vaccines drive the evolution of more virulent pathogens? Conventional wisdom is that natural selection will remove highly lethal pathogens if host death greatly reduces transmission. Vaccines that keep hosts alive but still allow transmission could thus allow very virulent strains to circulate in a population. [1] The covid vaccine is just that - limits symptoms but still allows transmission. > In an unvaccinated population, mutations occur at random producing a wide genetic spread with very few progeny resulting in long lasting lineages (Muller's ratchet), with a selection pressure that favors those variants that can (a) win the competition of replication among its cousins within a host, and (b) not kill the host so that it can thrive in new hosts. > In a highly vaccinated population, mutations occur at random, but the genetic spread among versions of the virus is narrowed to those that can evade immunity, which has now been made more uniform among the vaccinated population. This further encourages such lineages even when they would not have won out within individual hosts in competition among its cousins. Such evasion increases chances of reinfection. [2] [1] https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/info:doi/10.13... [2] https://roundingtheearth.substack.com/p/variant-roulette-evolution-and-immunity https://roundingtheearth.substack.com/p/variant-roulette-evo...
betterunix2 5y ago
"That "vaccine granted immunity" was a big one, it rapidly became less symptoms, and from that surreptitiously changed again to well you'll still have a week of feeling like shit if you catch covid, but you'll be less likely to die from it." The world changed between the beginning of vaccine availability and today. New variants emerged from unvaccinated populations and some of those variants (Delta being the most prominent currently being reported) are able to evade the immune response generated by the vaccine (breakthrough infections). The guidance was updated to reflected newly available information -- would you prefer that the CDC ignore new data and just stick with its initial statements? The reason we are far from normalcy is that since the beginning of this pandemic people have been refusing to do what they need to do to slow the spread. If people had done what health officials asked, we might have been closer to normalcy. Take your complaints to all those right-wing extremists in the media and the government who politicized a public health crisis and who continue to tell people to ignore the CDC.
- silver-arrow 5y ago
  No. Variants spring up because of non sterilizing vaccines. We always knew to NEVER engage in mass vaccination during a pandemic situation. We also knew we can’t vaccinated against corona viruses. As evidenced by Israel and other countries.
  - meepmorp 5y ago
    This doesn't even make sense as biology. You're essentially saying the virus evolved exclusively because of the pressure vaccines, which is absurd on its face.
    - chana_masala 5y ago
      > Could some vaccines drive the evolution of more virulent pathogens? Conventional wisdom is that natural selection will remove highly lethal pathogens if host death greatly reduces transmission. Vaccines that keep hosts alive but still allow transmission could thus allow very virulent strains to circulate in a population. [1] The covid vaccine is just that - limits symptoms but still allows transmission. > In an unvaccinated population, mutations occur at random producing a wide genetic spread with very few progeny resulting in long lasting lineages (Muller's ratchet), with a selection pressure that favors those variants that can (a) win the competition of replication among its cousins within a host, and (b) not kill the host so that it can thrive in new hosts. > In a highly vaccinated population, mutations occur at random, but the genetic spread among versions of the virus is narrowed to those that can evade immunity, which has now been made more uniform among the vaccinated population. This further encourages such lineages even when they would not have won out within individual hosts in competition among its cousins. Such evasion increases chances of reinfection. [2] [1] https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/info:doi/10.13... [2] https://roundingtheearth.substack.com/p/variant-roulette-evolution-and-immunity https://roundingtheearth.substack.com/p/variant-roulette-evo...

creaturemachine 5y ago

The science is evolving, and these differences from a year ago are proof of that. I don't think the vaccine makers were very proud to admit that their wonderdrug wasn't what it was promised to be, but that's the way it is. The only remaining choice for anti-vaxxers in the face of increasingly contagious variants is take the shot or risk death. Your call.

cies 5y ago
> The science is evolving Science got massively oversold. Who did that? Who benefits from that? > The only remaining choice for anti-vaxxers in the face of increasingly contagious variants is take the shot or risk death. Your call. I think if you call anyone hesitant to take these shots an anti-vaxxer, you contribute to making the narative so everything extreme. Many that are "c19 vaccine hesitant" are vaccinating their children on the locally standard schedule. It is just that this c19 vaccine is a bit different: did not yet stand the test of time and it is in many cases a whole new therapy (mRNA therapy's debut). > take the shot or risk death This sounds so dramatic. This choice is everywhere, just not with so much media attention. Diets, traffic accidents, extreme sports, ... I think we should use vaccines only to protect those at risk, and/or those who want protection by it. Once they have the shot it's over. The media is pushing a story that we need to all get vaccinated to protect others. I think, given the research, that this is never going to happen (virus will stay in corners of the world with unvaccinated people, virus will have new variants: virus will stay with us).
- Reason077 5y ago
  > "It is just that this c19 vaccine is a bit different: did not yet stand the test of time and it is in many cases a whole new therapy (mRNA therapy's debut)." At this point, surely the various c19 vaccines are the most highly scrutinised and widely administered vaccines developed in the past 50 years or so. More than 6 billion shots administered, and counting. How much more time do you need?
  - pigeonhole123 5y ago
    Even Pfizer’s own RCT showed no benefit for all cause mortality at six months. Covid deaths were replaced by CVD deaths
    - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
      > Even Pfizer’s own RCT showed no benefit for all cause mortality at six months There are countries that have had Pfizer rollouts to millions of people over the last 8 months ( 1) . If this were true in the real world, the excess mortality would have shown up in the real-world data by now. It has not. it's rubbish. You tout this false and trivially falsifiable "fact" repeatedly. Quit it. https://ijhpr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13584-021-00440-6 https://ijhpr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13584-021-...
      - pigeonhole123 5y ago
        Quoting the vaccine manufacturer’s own gold standard study is “rubbish”. I honestly did not see that one coming.
        actually_a_dog 5y ago
        You're misrepresenting the study. That study never had enough statistical power to detect a reduction in deaths. It's disingenuous to simply cry "no reduction in deaths! manufacturer study!" https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-964291665925 https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-964291665925

LeoPanthera 5y ago

> That vaccine granted immunity was a big one, it rapidly became less symptoms, and from that surreptitiously changed again to well you'll still have a week of feeling like shit, but you'll be less likely to die from it. You're being downvoted but the medical industry in the US honestly has terrible PR. It's not surprising that people misunderstand. Vaccines do grant immunity, but immunity doesn't mean "you cannot catch the virus" and it never has. It means that your immune system will recognise the virus immediately and fight it. This is the same thing as "less symptoms". "A week of feeling like shit" has nothing to do with the virus at all, they're not symptoms of an infection that you are feeling, they are side effects of your immune system learning to fight the virus that the vaccine is teaching it about. All, or at least most, vaccines require occasional boosters, but if everyone is vaccinated when they should be, the virus will die out before any significant number of further infections can occur, as has now happened with Polio and Smallpox. So in short: You were not lied to, but you absolutely should have had this explained to you with greater clarity.

oceanplexian 5y ago
If vaccines don’t provide immunity then what’s the point of all the public policy such as vaccine passports, etc? If you can still catch and spread it those who are vaccinated should be subject to the same testing requirements as the unvaccinated.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  > If you can still catch and spread it those who are vaccinated should be subject to the same testing requirements as the unvaccinated. You're misunderstanding the precise use of the word "can" here. I can win the lottery. I can win a coin toss. But the odds are drastically different, and so en masse, we should plan and test much more for the "much more likely" case than the other. Now, vaccination against COVID gives better odds of not catching and not spreading COVID. You still _can_, though. > If vaccines don’t provide immunity But they do, statistically they provide a high level of immunity. Not 100% though. You know this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28699699 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28699699 So why are you contradicting yourself?

ZoomerCretin 5y ago

Immunity: the ability of an organism to resist a particular infection or toxin by the action of specific antibodies or sensitized white blood cells. The vaccine gives immunity, by the definition of what immunity is. The reduced efficacy was communicated as soon as it was confirmed. There was no lie. This is how science occurs. The best conclusion was given from the data at the time. Regarding the metrics for vaccination rates that would allow full normalcy: they existed before the Delta variant, and unfortunately this new variant has made herd immunity impossible.

YossarianFrPrez 5y ago

> That [the] vaccine granted immunity. Vaccines work by stimulating the immune system. "Immunity" in the context of vaccines does not, and has never meant something like 'diplomatic immunity.' Instead, it means that a vaccinated person's body has the tools to fight off the virus. Which looks like reduced symptoms and drastically reduced likelihood of death from the virus. Mild side effects are expected. [1] This has been true since vaccines were first discovered /invented, and will continue to be true. Measles, Smallpox, Polio, etc. Perhaps many people misunderstood what "immunity" meant... But that initial misunderstanding doesn't mean that they were being lied to by doctors and scientists. What it really means is that they were unintentionally lying to themselves about the definition of immunity. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/why-vaccinate/vaccine-decision.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/why-vaccinate/vaccine-d...

JuliusPullo 5y ago
The Covid vaccine does not work by directly stimulating the immune system, like all other vaccines do. Instead, it inserts synthetic molecules into some cells, turning them into little machines that constantly produce a toxin that is released into the blood stream. The immune system is supposed to learn to fight this toxin. This has NEVER before been done in any other vaccine. We could speculate for hours about what could go wrong, but for the moment lets just say that myocarditis and blood clots are definitely NOT mild side effects.
- edmundsauto 5y ago
  Myocarditis and blood clots are also (more frequently) side effects from getting C19. Just because it's never been done before does not mean we have no idea what it will or won't do. Biology is uncertain, but it's important to examine the vaccine risks AGAINST COVID RISKS. Nothing is no-risk, including the vaccine. However, the accurate comparison is getting covid without the vax, versus with the vax. Looking at the vaccine risks in isolation is somewhere between misleading and dishonest.
  - effie 5y ago

orangepurple 5y ago

Innate immunity in a world of many unvaccinated individuals is going to gradually reduce this virus to another variant of the common cold. In the mean time, the vaccinated like myself are going to harbor and evolve dangerous variants which will kill many of the unvaccinated. The unvaccinated are the real victims here, since the vaccinated ones won't help the virus become more benign as effectively as those who develop innate immunity against it.

effie 5y ago
Even if you are eventually proven correct (vaccinated putting pressure on the virus to get more dangerous), I think your personal decision to favour personal health to public health is the correct one. Everybody should primarily watch their own interests and their own health. On the other hand, public policy leading to creation of more dangerous viruses would be a disaster and if that happens, it should be stopped.

KVFinn 5y ago

avereveard 5y ago
no? I know very well the definition. that why I'm stating that the way it was worded at the beginning was a big fat lie, told to the public to coerce compliance, and latter reduced to a more realistic target to manage expectations.
- Tostino 5y ago
  You are entirely ignoring the point the other commenter made about delta changing things. You are simply repeating talking points I've heard over and over, it's exhausting.
  - avereveard 5y ago
    you are willfully merging two separate topic into one trying to shut down an argument by adjacency, as if the trite answers you bring could move the discussion forward. do you have points of your own that relate to the topic at hand?
mythrwy 5y ago
I'd be curious if the definition has changed in the past year (word redefinition seems to a thing lately and it is Literally not for the better!). Immunity obviously means being immune. Immune has a specific definition and that is not "helps sometimes". https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/immune https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/immu... Resistance or, decreased susceptibility, or whatever other term you wish to use, is not the same as immunity. Otherwise what word do we use for "immunity" now?

jjwiseman 5y ago

From reading comments, it seems like a lot of people don't understand that Delta changed things. In a world without Delta, the vaccines did do an incredible job of actually preventing infection. "Effectiveness [against confirmed infection] remained above 95% regardless of age group, sex, race, or presence of comorbidities."[1] But that study used data up to March 2021, which means mostly non-Delta variants. Against Delta, vaccine effectiveness in preventing infection might be closer to 50%+ (e.g. [2]) -- which is still very effective! It's just not effective as we would like. "Hi, here's a shot that cuts your odds of getting infected in half. Do you want it?" Um, yes please. You have to change your behavior when the facts in the world change. The messaging had to change with the facts. Of course you can't use the old vaccination thresholds for re-opening if the virus is now infecting 10x (50% vs. 95%) as many vaccinated people as it was 2 months ago, that doesn't make sense. The virus moved the goalposts. You can be angry about that, but that's reality. We are so lucky that despite everything, the vaccines are still incredibly effective at keeping you from dying if you get COVID. I'm actually very angry at how the mask messaging was handled (there should absolutely be consequences for that), but it doesn't matter how angry I am, if I don't get vaccinated I am irrationally refusing the single best way to avoid dying in this pandemic. [1] https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M21-1577 https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M21-1577 [2] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e4.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e4.htm

chana_masala 5y ago
Delta was encouraged through the evolutionary pressure from a leaky vaccine
- meepmorp 5y ago
  Bullshit. It came from India, and the unchecked spread of the virus through the largely unvaccinated population. Evolutionary pressure is exerted by all immune responses, not just ones conditioned by vaccines.
  - chana_masala 5y ago
    > Could some vaccines drive the evolution of more virulent pathogens? Conventional wisdom is that natural selection will remove highly lethal pathogens if host death greatly reduces transmission. Vaccines that keep hosts alive but still allow transmission could thus allow very virulent strains to circulate in a population. [1] The covid vaccine is just that - limits symptoms but still allows transmission. > In an unvaccinated population, mutations occur at random producing a wide genetic spread with very few progeny resulting in long lasting lineages (Muller's ratchet), with a selection pressure that favors those variants that can (a) win the competition of replication among its cousins within a host, and (b) not kill the host so that it can thrive in new hosts. > In a highly vaccinated population, mutations occur at random, but the genetic spread among versions of the virus is narrowed to those that can evade immunity, which has now been made more uniform among the vaccinated population. This further encourages such lineages even when they would not have won out within individual hosts in competition among its cousins. Such evasion increases chances of reinfection. [2] [1] https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/info:doi/10.13... [2] https://roundingtheearth.substack.com/p/variant-roulette-evolution-and-immunity https://roundingtheearth.substack.com/p/variant-roulette-evo...

betterunix2 5y ago

"That "vaccine granted immunity" was a big one, it rapidly became less symptoms, and from that surreptitiously changed again to well you'll still have a week of feeling like shit if you catch covid, but you'll be less likely to die from it." The world changed between the beginning of vaccine availability and today. New variants emerged from unvaccinated populations and some of those variants (Delta being the most prominent currently being reported) are able to evade the immune response generated by the vaccine (breakthrough infections). The guidance was updated to reflected newly available information -- would you prefer that the CDC ignore new data and just stick with its initial statements? The reason we are far from normalcy is that since the beginning of this pandemic people have been refusing to do what they need to do to slow the spread. If people had done what health officials asked, we might have been closer to normalcy. Take your complaints to all those right-wing extremists in the media and the government who politicized a public health crisis and who continue to tell people to ignore the CDC.

silver-arrow 5y ago
No. Variants spring up because of non sterilizing vaccines. We always knew to NEVER engage in mass vaccination during a pandemic situation. We also knew we can’t vaccinated against corona viruses. As evidenced by Israel and other countries.
- meepmorp 5y ago
  This doesn't even make sense as biology. You're essentially saying the virus evolved exclusively because of the pressure vaccines, which is absurd on its face.
  - chana_masala 5y ago
    > Could some vaccines drive the evolution of more virulent pathogens? Conventional wisdom is that natural selection will remove highly lethal pathogens if host death greatly reduces transmission. Vaccines that keep hosts alive but still allow transmission could thus allow very virulent strains to circulate in a population. [1] The covid vaccine is just that - limits symptoms but still allows transmission. > In an unvaccinated population, mutations occur at random producing a wide genetic spread with very few progeny resulting in long lasting lineages (Muller's ratchet), with a selection pressure that favors those variants that can (a) win the competition of replication among its cousins within a host, and (b) not kill the host so that it can thrive in new hosts. > In a highly vaccinated population, mutations occur at random, but the genetic spread among versions of the virus is narrowed to those that can evade immunity, which has now been made more uniform among the vaccinated population. This further encourages such lineages even when they would not have won out within individual hosts in competition among its cousins. Such evasion increases chances of reinfection. [2] [1] https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/info:doi/10.13... [2] https://roundingtheearth.substack.com/p/variant-roulette-evolution-and-immunity https://roundingtheearth.substack.com/p/variant-roulette-evo...