4 ms·

Or how about not being a complete moron and simply doing the unambiguously, obviously right thing with no downsides?

by brazzy 5y ago

LeifCarrotson 5y ago
There are a few slightly different positions. Several of these positions are more or less agnostic about whether or not the individual arguing for them wears a seat belt. 1. I don't like seat belt laws because I don't like people telling me anything, even if it's the right thing to do and I do it anyways. 2. I don't like seat belt laws because I'm a complete moron and don't want to wear a seat belt even though it's the unambiguously, obviously right thing, I don't like the seat belt itself. I may or may not think that other people should or should not also not wear a seat belt, but I'm mostly worried about personally being penalized for not wearing a seat belt. 3. I don't like seat belt laws because even if I'm wearing my seat belt, police can use it as a tool to pull me over and harass me. 4. I like seat belt laws because they encourage everyone, myself included, to do the right thing, and reduce the societal costs that I'd otherwise have to share if other people wear their seat belts. "Just do the right thing" works for me as an individual, but I'm not just an individual - I am a member of a society, I contribute insurance premiums and tax payments that financially go towards first responders and health care that might be abused by people who don't do something as obvious as wearing a seat belt - not to mention the emotional, moral and ethical weight of driving around people who might be thrown through their windshield and splatter all over you and your car in a crash.
- mcphage 5y ago
  > 1. I don't like seat belt laws because I don't like people telling me anything, even if it's the right thing to do and I do it anyways. This is one of those positions which seem reasonable and valid from the inside, but from the outside feels like watching an adult throw a temper tantrum when they don't get their way.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    Not the OP, but once you attach enforcement to something, it feels different - it is a slight invasion of your world. To give a wild-ish example: I am very careful about my teeth and I floss often, but I wouldn't like to have to carry around an authorized list of last cleaning sessions for a random cop to check. Even though it could, on aggregate, save quite a lot of money for dental care in our local single payer system.
  - hackflip 5y ago
    I _should_ eat vegetables every day, and I usually do, but I don't want to give armed police the power to make me. It's not about the vegetables, it's about handing away more of your agency to those who can and will abuse it.
1123581321 5y ago
My understanding is that seat belt law compliance (90-95%) is higher than compliance with speeding laws (minority of drivers), and speed laws are the same weight of infraction or higher than belts. Based on that, I don’t think opposition to the law is about actually wearing seatbelts, at least not anymore. Certainly open to correction, though.
- HelixEndeavor 5y ago
  The primary reason speeding is such an issue in America is because we build our roads for high speeds and then put arbitrary signs limiting that speed. Roads should be designed for the speed you want drivers to go at.
  - 1123581321 5y ago
    I wonder if we’re both Strong Towns readers? Agreed—-twelve foot lanes plus generous shoulders plus set-back buildings send the wrong signal. Tying into the greater point, I think the environmental shaping by the auto manufacturers has a lot to do with the high compliance rate. A lot of work has gone into belt comfort and seatbelt detection systems are calibrated to the right amount of annoying and undergo UX/focus testing.
    - HelixEndeavor 5y ago
      I haven't read it myself, but I've been watching the YT channel Not Just Bikes and he has a whole series about Strong Towns concepts. The horrifying moment I realize I've always felt isolated in my suburban neighborhood because of infinite sprawl and stroads as far as the eye can see!
dominotw 5y ago
you can be against the law and still wear seatbelts 100% of the time?
eadmund 5y ago
One should wear a seat belt, of course. But that's not the question: the question is whether the State should punish those who do not wear seat belts. Given that they risk only their own lives (modulo the vanishingly-small number of folks injured or kill by bodies flung from crashes), I believe that the answer is unambigously no. Wear a seatbelt. Don't fine and/or imprison those who do not.
- random42_ 5y ago
  Where I come from, people did not have the habit of wearing seat belts, even though, at the time, it was proven to help in case of accidents. The media was all over it but people still not wore them. Government then decided to make it a law to wear it and those not wearing would be fined. The law was really enforced and, eventually, everyone was wearing it and it’s a no brainer today. If not for the law and the fines, the behavior of not wearing it wouldn’t have changed or, if it did, it would take much longer. Edit: typo
  - HelixEndeavor 5y ago
    So the people shouldn't be allowed to choose to take that risk for themselves? Fuck free choice, we should coerce them into making the right one?
    - random42_ 5y ago
      In that case I think enforcing it was necessary to break the status quo. If it should no longer be a law and let people decide is up to each one’s personal opinions. Myself, I think if someone wants to take risk and maybe get killed there are more efficient ways of doing it and in a way that wouldn’t potentially cause damage to others.
tomjen3 5y ago
There are no things in the universe with no downsides.

Or how about not being a complete moron and simply doing the unambiguously, obviously right thing with no downsides?

by brazzy 5y ago

Or how about not being a complete moron and simply doing the unambiguously, obviously right thing with no downsides?

There are a few slightly different positions. Several of these positions are more or less agnostic about whether or not the individual arguing for them wears a seat belt. 1. I don't like seat belt laws because I don't like people telling me anything, even if it's the right thing to do and I do it anyways. 2. I don't like seat belt laws because I'm a complete moron and don't want to wear a seat belt even though it's the unambiguously, obviously right thing, I don't like the seat belt itself. I may or may not think that other people should or should not also not wear a seat belt, but I'm mostly worried about personally being penalized for not wearing a seat belt. 3. I don't like seat belt laws because even if I'm wearing my seat belt, police can use it as a tool to pull me over and harass me. 4. I like seat belt laws because they encourage everyone, myself included, to do the right thing, and reduce the societal costs that I'd otherwise have to share if other people wear their seat belts. "Just do the right thing" works for me as an individual, but I'm not just an individual - I am a member of a society, I contribute insurance premiums and tax payments that financially go towards first responders and health care that might be abused by people who don't do something as obvious as wearing a seat belt - not to mention the emotional, moral and ethical weight of driving around people who might be thrown through their windshield and splatter all over you and your car in a crash.

mcphage 5y ago
> 1. I don't like seat belt laws because I don't like people telling me anything, even if it's the right thing to do and I do it anyways. This is one of those positions which seem reasonable and valid from the inside, but from the outside feels like watching an adult throw a temper tantrum when they don't get their way.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Not the OP, but once you attach enforcement to something, it feels different - it is a slight invasion of your world. To give a wild-ish example: I am very careful about my teeth and I floss often, but I wouldn't like to have to carry around an authorized list of last cleaning sessions for a random cop to check. Even though it could, on aggregate, save quite a lot of money for dental care in our local single payer system.
- hackflip 5y ago
  I _should_ eat vegetables every day, and I usually do, but I don't want to give armed police the power to make me. It's not about the vegetables, it's about handing away more of your agency to those who can and will abuse it.

1123581321 5y ago

My understanding is that seat belt law compliance (90-95%) is higher than compliance with speeding laws (minority of drivers), and speed laws are the same weight of infraction or higher than belts. Based on that, I don’t think opposition to the law is about actually wearing seatbelts, at least not anymore. Certainly open to correction, though.

HelixEndeavor 5y ago
The primary reason speeding is such an issue in America is because we build our roads for high speeds and then put arbitrary signs limiting that speed. Roads should be designed for the speed you want drivers to go at.
- 1123581321 5y ago
  I wonder if we’re both Strong Towns readers? Agreed—-twelve foot lanes plus generous shoulders plus set-back buildings send the wrong signal. Tying into the greater point, I think the environmental shaping by the auto manufacturers has a lot to do with the high compliance rate. A lot of work has gone into belt comfort and seatbelt detection systems are calibrated to the right amount of annoying and undergo UX/focus testing.
  - HelixEndeavor 5y ago
    I haven't read it myself, but I've been watching the YT channel Not Just Bikes and he has a whole series about Strong Towns concepts. The horrifying moment I realize I've always felt isolated in my suburban neighborhood because of infinite sprawl and stroads as far as the eye can see!

dominotw 5y ago

you can be against the law and still wear seatbelts 100% of the time?

eadmund 5y ago

One should wear a seat belt, of course. But that's not the question: the question is whether the State should punish those who do not wear seat belts. Given that they risk only their own lives (modulo the vanishingly-small number of folks injured or kill by bodies flung from crashes), I believe that the answer is unambigously no. Wear a seatbelt. Don't fine and/or imprison those who do not.

random42_ 5y ago
Where I come from, people did not have the habit of wearing seat belts, even though, at the time, it was proven to help in case of accidents. The media was all over it but people still not wore them. Government then decided to make it a law to wear it and those not wearing would be fined. The law was really enforced and, eventually, everyone was wearing it and it’s a no brainer today. If not for the law and the fines, the behavior of not wearing it wouldn’t have changed or, if it did, it would take much longer. Edit: typo
- HelixEndeavor 5y ago
  So the people shouldn't be allowed to choose to take that risk for themselves? Fuck free choice, we should coerce them into making the right one?
  - random42_ 5y ago
    In that case I think enforcing it was necessary to break the status quo. If it should no longer be a law and let people decide is up to each one’s personal opinions. Myself, I think if someone wants to take risk and maybe get killed there are more efficient ways of doing it and in a way that wouldn’t potentially cause damage to others.

tomjen3 5y ago

There are no things in the universe with no downsides.