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It's a simple thing, but many who write about propaganda don't seem to get it: Propaganda can be divided into positioning and payload. Positioning is what is w

It's a simple thing, but many who write about propaganda don't seem to get it: Propaganda can be divided into positioning and payload. Positioning is what is written to attract an audience. Payload is what the propagandist actually cares about. There's very little payload. These farms aren't trying to "spread chaos" for its own sake. It's just a side effect of trying to gain an audience; clickbait media at its height was exactly the same. Don't think the payload has anything to do with cultural issues. It's either narrow political stuff (I.e. getting people to believe Syrian rebels staged deadly attacks on themselves) or simply profit.

dgudkov 5y ago
I would argue that not having a payload makes it even more dangerous. At least, when there is a payload you know what you're dealing with. When there usually is no payload, it may suddenly appear and be very surprising in its reach and effect.
rich_sasha 5y ago
For me the disappointment is Facebook. It seems to be all propaganda, possibly for clicks not payload, but very little actual content. Or really anything organic. Just a weird mish-mash of gamed blah.
- snarf21 5y ago
  Very true but the reason for it is that it is insanely profitable. This is the real ends for everything on FB. I always say "ain't no one convincing nobody about nothing" on FB. It is faux outrage for profit and until we start taxing digital advertising revenue, this will continue to be the world we live in.
  - MandieD 5y ago
    “Start taxing digital advertising revenue” That’s it. Not profits (too many games possible), but the revenue itself. Call your senators and representatives.
    - rich_sasha 5y ago
      "Oh Senator, this isn't advertising, nor revenue. This Elbonian Troll Farm is investing in Facebook by buying Class Adv-ERT shares, and owns a fraction of out Timeline business, and is entitled to post on it. In fact, I think we qualify for a tax cut."
netcan 5y ago
>Don't think the payload has anything to do with cultural issues. Careful getting stuck in a frame where only a single antipattern exists. First, profit and narrow political stuff is a pretty broad area. Second, religion or culture has the potential to be a force in its own right... whether or not that's been the case here, so far. Online religious movement exist, and some are big... but none have hit historic proportions yets. That doesn't mean none will. Christianity, or some other religious culture could easily have an arab spring, Trump or Brexit moment. Easily. The existence of these pages can and might be of historical interest, depending on what happens to happen over the next 5-10 years. Christianity is a lot of people, don't underestimate the significance of religion.
addingnumbers 5y ago
> These farms aren't trying to "spread chaos" for its own sake. It's not their only goal, but it is definitely among them. From Dugin's 1997 Foundations of Geopolitics, to this day required reading in Russian military schools: > Russia should use its special services within the borders of the United States to fuel instability and separatism, for instance, provoke "Afro-American racists". Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics".

dgudkov 5y ago

I would argue that not having a payload makes it even more dangerous. At least, when there is a payload you know what you're dealing with. When there usually is no payload, it may suddenly appear and be very surprising in its reach and effect.

rich_sasha 5y ago

For me the disappointment is Facebook. It seems to be all propaganda, possibly for clicks not payload, but very little actual content. Or really anything organic. Just a weird mish-mash of gamed blah.

snarf21 5y ago
Very true but the reason for it is that it is insanely profitable. This is the real ends for everything on FB. I always say "ain't no one convincing nobody about nothing" on FB. It is faux outrage for profit and until we start taxing digital advertising revenue, this will continue to be the world we live in.
- MandieD 5y ago
  “Start taxing digital advertising revenue” That’s it. Not profits (too many games possible), but the revenue itself. Call your senators and representatives.
  - rich_sasha 5y ago
    "Oh Senator, this isn't advertising, nor revenue. This Elbonian Troll Farm is investing in Facebook by buying Class Adv-ERT shares, and owns a fraction of out Timeline business, and is entitled to post on it. In fact, I think we qualify for a tax cut."

netcan 5y ago

>Don't think the payload has anything to do with cultural issues. Careful getting stuck in a frame where only a single antipattern exists. First, profit and narrow political stuff is a pretty broad area. Second, religion or culture has the potential to be a force in its own right... whether or not that's been the case here, so far. Online religious movement exist, and some are big... but none have hit historic proportions yets. That doesn't mean none will. Christianity, or some other religious culture could easily have an arab spring, Trump or Brexit moment. Easily. The existence of these pages can and might be of historical interest, depending on what happens to happen over the next 5-10 years. Christianity is a lot of people, don't underestimate the significance of religion.

addingnumbers 5y ago

> These farms aren't trying to "spread chaos" for its own sake. It's not their only goal, but it is definitely among them. From Dugin's 1997 Foundations of Geopolitics, to this day required reading in Russian military schools: > Russia should use its special services within the borders of the United States to fuel instability and separatism, for instance, provoke "Afro-American racists". Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics".