6 ms·

>You don't see the houses that aren't built, or the lives that aren't lived. You see houses that don’t exist and lifetimes that aren’t lived? That’s amazing.

>You don't see the houses that aren't built, or the lives that aren't lived. You see houses that don’t exist and lifetimes that aren’t lived? That’s amazing. I personally don’t think “misery” falls into the category of “crazy societal focus”.

1123581321 5y ago
It sounds like you’re trolling, but assuming not, the houses that doesn’t exist is a reference to underdeveloped housing, which has the effect of driving up rents or driving people to live in less desirable areas. Less desirable areas doesn’t mean what you might imagine (less fun), it means worse schools, worse jobs, and so on, and at least for that person. That all has societal effects including impoverishment and shorter healthy lifespans.
- estaseuropano 5y ago
  Please do look at ypur own argument and think it through in practical terms. One has to be a blind free market believer to think that higher foreclosures decrease suffering. Yes market forces may drive more houses to be built, but that means years on the street for some poor soul. In addition.rents have already risen massively pre-covid, so likely lack of housing is not the factor - lack of affordable housing is the issue. To accuse another of trolling just because you are unable to think beyond the abstract is pretty childish.
  - californical 5y ago
    Why would rents rise if there’s nobody to pay the higher rent? Rent has been increasing because there is a bidding war among potential renters. Lack of housing in general is what causes a lack of affordable housing.
    - tpxl 5y ago
      Because when your rent rises you don't go homeless, you pony up.
      - jfoster 5y ago
        Or you move to something that better fits your budget. At least, if there's sufficient supply you will.
        Broken_Hippo 5y ago
        Not if you are poor enough. Moving costs money too. Suddenly, not only are you on the hood for the increased rent where you are, but now you gotta pay another months rent in addition to deposits (not everywhere charges last month's rent upfront). And it isn't just housing: You might have to pay a deposit for utilities (for example) especially if they weren't in your name previously. And then there are logistics of actually getting your stuff to the new place. You might have to leave some things behind. And over the next couple of months, you'll probably have things like connection fees for water and electricity. If you are really lucky, you'll get deposits back to help with this. All this assumes you weren't already living in a crappy, low-rent apartment too. Sometimes, there isn't much to choose from. Enough affordable housing is only part of the issue.
        wonderwonder 5y ago
        There is a level at which you are too poor to move. You cant afford first and last months deposit. You cant afford a moving truck. You cant afford whatever required deposits may exist for heating, electricity, gas, etc. There are a lot of families that exist in this zone. Not too mention a lot of people are tied to a location due to the availability of free childcare via a relative.
      - afarrell 5y ago
        Or your background level of life stress increases and you are 2% more likely to escape from it with vodka and then fall into a spiral of alcoholism.
      - kortilla 5y ago
  - lmm 5y ago
    > Please do look at ypur own argument and think it through in practical terms. One has to be a blind free market believer to think that higher foreclosures decrease suffering. Yes market forces may drive more houses to be built, but that means years on the street for some poor soul. This seems like the same kind of thinking as "Just printing money and handing it out will make everyone better off. How could it not? One has to be a blind economist to think that anyone would be worse off for getting extra money; yes market forces may drive the value of money down, but that would take years to have an effect."
    - prox 5y ago
      Certain policies provide a cushioning effect and softening the blow. Decreasing suffering in this way prevents a lot of societal pressures down the line. It’s not just about printing money.
      - clusterfish 5y ago
        Policies like eviction / foreclosure moratoriums are not sustainable long term. Eventually people will need to come off those crutches and start paying their rents and mortgages again. Those things aren't free right now, it's just other people paying for them. Including our future selves via taxes and inflation. The longer this goes on, the more painful it will be for everyone. Long term there is no free lunch. We've been in this crisis long enough that emergency stopgap policies don't make sense any more.
  - 1123581321 5y ago
    Practically, it’s simply that this is a situation where higher foreclosures in the short team lead to fewer overall, as we get closer to enough affordable housing options for everyone (and providing public aid becomes cheaper for those who cannot afford anything.) It sounds like we have the same heart for renters and homeowners. Both of your insults are misplaced.
volta83 5y ago
> You see houses that don’t exist Of course. I had money to build a house for renting at the end of 2019 and started looking into it in Jan 2020. This house would have increased house supply, provide a home for people that can afford to rent but not to build/buy/... their own house, etc. I decided to put that money in stonks in march 2020 instead because I evaluated the risks of both options, and the risk of stonks was lower than the risk of renters not paying rent. So I saw that house literally not being built. Putting that money in stonks in march 2020 was probably one of the best financial decisions I've ever made.

1123581321 5y ago

It sounds like you’re trolling, but assuming not, the houses that doesn’t exist is a reference to underdeveloped housing, which has the effect of driving up rents or driving people to live in less desirable areas. Less desirable areas doesn’t mean what you might imagine (less fun), it means worse schools, worse jobs, and so on, and at least for that person. That all has societal effects including impoverishment and shorter healthy lifespans.

estaseuropano 5y ago
Please do look at ypur own argument and think it through in practical terms. One has to be a blind free market believer to think that higher foreclosures decrease suffering. Yes market forces may drive more houses to be built, but that means years on the street for some poor soul. In addition.rents have already risen massively pre-covid, so likely lack of housing is not the factor - lack of affordable housing is the issue. To accuse another of trolling just because you are unable to think beyond the abstract is pretty childish.
- californical 5y ago
  Why would rents rise if there’s nobody to pay the higher rent? Rent has been increasing because there is a bidding war among potential renters. Lack of housing in general is what causes a lack of affordable housing.
  - tpxl 5y ago
    Because when your rent rises you don't go homeless, you pony up.
    - jfoster 5y ago
      Or you move to something that better fits your budget. At least, if there's sufficient supply you will.
      - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
        Not if you are poor enough. Moving costs money too. Suddenly, not only are you on the hood for the increased rent where you are, but now you gotta pay another months rent in addition to deposits (not everywhere charges last month's rent upfront). And it isn't just housing: You might have to pay a deposit for utilities (for example) especially if they weren't in your name previously. And then there are logistics of actually getting your stuff to the new place. You might have to leave some things behind. And over the next couple of months, you'll probably have things like connection fees for water and electricity. If you are really lucky, you'll get deposits back to help with this. All this assumes you weren't already living in a crappy, low-rent apartment too. Sometimes, there isn't much to choose from. Enough affordable housing is only part of the issue.
      - wonderwonder 5y ago
        There is a level at which you are too poor to move. You cant afford first and last months deposit. You cant afford a moving truck. You cant afford whatever required deposits may exist for heating, electricity, gas, etc. There are a lot of families that exist in this zone. Not too mention a lot of people are tied to a location due to the availability of free childcare via a relative.
    - afarrell 5y ago
      Or your background level of life stress increases and you are 2% more likely to escape from it with vodka and then fall into a spiral of alcoholism.
    - kortilla 5y ago
- lmm 5y ago
  > Please do look at ypur own argument and think it through in practical terms. One has to be a blind free market believer to think that higher foreclosures decrease suffering. Yes market forces may drive more houses to be built, but that means years on the street for some poor soul. This seems like the same kind of thinking as "Just printing money and handing it out will make everyone better off. How could it not? One has to be a blind economist to think that anyone would be worse off for getting extra money; yes market forces may drive the value of money down, but that would take years to have an effect."
  - prox 5y ago
    Certain policies provide a cushioning effect and softening the blow. Decreasing suffering in this way prevents a lot of societal pressures down the line. It’s not just about printing money.
    - clusterfish 5y ago
      Policies like eviction / foreclosure moratoriums are not sustainable long term. Eventually people will need to come off those crutches and start paying their rents and mortgages again. Those things aren't free right now, it's just other people paying for them. Including our future selves via taxes and inflation. The longer this goes on, the more painful it will be for everyone. Long term there is no free lunch. We've been in this crisis long enough that emergency stopgap policies don't make sense any more.
- 1123581321 5y ago
  Practically, it’s simply that this is a situation where higher foreclosures in the short team lead to fewer overall, as we get closer to enough affordable housing options for everyone (and providing public aid becomes cheaper for those who cannot afford anything.) It sounds like we have the same heart for renters and homeowners. Both of your insults are misplaced.

volta83 5y ago

> You see houses that don’t exist Of course. I had money to build a house for renting at the end of 2019 and started looking into it in Jan 2020. This house would have increased house supply, provide a home for people that can afford to rent but not to build/buy/... their own house, etc. I decided to put that money in stonks in march 2020 instead because I evaluated the risks of both options, and the risk of stonks was lower than the risk of renters not paying rent. So I saw that house literally not being built. Putting that money in stonks in march 2020 was probably one of the best financial decisions I've ever made.