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Believe it or not, this isn't a rare attitude among managers at Amazon. A significant percentage of SDMs believe they must "keep a high bar" and remove any diss

Believe it or not, this isn't a rare attitude among managers at Amazon. A significant percentage of SDMs believe they must "keep a high bar" and remove any dissenting subordinates. Word has gotten out about it, mostly on the blind app, which forced Amazon to raise pay bands for engineers 50-100k. This is costing the company a lot of money. The difference going forwards for Amazon is that the stock is mostly stagnant, and so employees are no longer putting up with miserable harsh working conditions, the financial incentives are no longer there.

debacle 5y ago
What is the blind app?
- pabl8k 5y ago
  It's a forum for people at tech companies to anonymously talk to other people at their companies in a private forum, or with people at other companies publicly to all members. They validate employment using your email address. As could be expected many of the topics devolve into toxic messes, but there is some useful discussion.
  - ajb 5y ago
    Only available to people in the US and South Korea at the moment, apparently. A pity, but I guess they need lawyers in every country they do business in.
    - 0xy 5y ago
      This isn't true, there's plenty of non-US people on Blind including me.
      - ajb 5y ago
        Currently to register in the app you have to select US or South Korea. They are setting a strong expectation that you should only do so from one of those countries, which makes it seem unlikely to me that I will find any colleagues -most of move would not think to fake their location. They also won't let you leave a review without a location in the US or South Korea. Makes it all a bit pointless if your company is not in those countries. Maybe they changed this since you registered?
        0xy 5y ago
        No, just select US. There's plenty of foreigners still.
  - jasonladuke0311 5y ago
    Yep. It sucks in many, many ways, but it also is full of info on negotiation, interview processes at many companies, and salary/offer sharing. I had no idea how much more money I could be making until I signed up there. Deleted the app as soon as I signed an offer sheet.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- friedman23 5y ago
  teamblind.com
- shreyansj 5y ago
  teamblind.com
- enra 5y ago
  It's 3rd party app that you can join your company's forum if you have an email address with the company domain. It's like Nextdoor but for employees of a particular company where people can vent, spread rumors, and at times share useful information.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ctvo 5y ago
  One of the most toxic environments on the internet, filled with people who define themselves by their employment at big tech, and how large their salaries are. Think WallStreetBets meets tech but with less self-deprecation and emotional maturity, if you can imagine it.
seattle_spring 5y ago
In my ~15 year career I've met a lot of people that have gone on and worked at almost every big company imaginable. For some reason an outsized amount of people that I hated working with ended up as SDMs at Amazon. The list of people I hate is very, very small too, so it seems like more than a coincidence.
- darkmarmot 5y ago
  For me the high correlation seems to be with Facebook.
  - w0mbat 5y ago
    Yeah me too. All the assholes went to Facebook. Only one person I like went there, and he quit.
    - scruple 5y ago
      Interesting. My (small, n=3) list of supreme assholes who I never want to work with again also ended up at Facebook.
      - carlivar 5y ago
        I told Facebook recruiters to stop contacting me because I will never work for them due to my personal ethics. Maybe others have also done this and Facebook's talent pool is the remaining assholes.
        scruple 5y ago
        I know a few people who've gone there and left within 1-2 years. I know exactly 1 person who is a very nice and competent engineer who was miserable there for their first year but they eventually found a team that they were happy with and they are still there today, probably 3-4 years later. But, yes, it seems to me that, especially given that last anecdote, the place is awash with egotistical assholes.
twalla 5y ago
One of the things I do to get Amazon recruiters to leave me the hell alone is to respond to their emails with a link to the most recent public AMZN snafu and urge them to quit - it's funny/sad how each time I respond I can quickly find 3-5 new links no more than a few months old.
- radicalbyte 5y ago
  I just tell them how much it would cost to get me to up and move to Canada or the US to work for them, just to be equal to my situation here in Europe. That usually stops them pretty quickly :)
  - xtracto 5y ago
    Haha, this is the way. Over the last 2 years I started to receive a lot of unwanted recruit spam both in my email and through Linkedin. I used to ignore them and get angry. Now my response is quite straightforward: Sure, I am happy to talk if you can offer me $250,000 USD, Work from Home (I live in Mexico) and X, Y, Z benefits that I currently have. This also applies for the ones that want to have a call to you for a "mysterious client" ( particularly for exec positions), usually just wasting your time. You are the one that contacted me, if you want to get my time better be for something good. It usually isn't.
- mabbo 5y ago
  A thought: be nice to recruiters. They're generally nice people who are underpaid for the work they do (usually). They're in a really tough business. And if you want a selfish take: Maybe today they're working for Amazon, but tomorrow they may be doing the same job at your dream company. They have too many people to try reaching out to, and they may remember your name.
  - erikerikson 5y ago
    +1 For years I asked them to put me on their do not contact list. I eventually asked someone with authority. Whenever I am still contacted by managers, I simply forward that email with a polite note to that stakeholder. I get apologies and they get a lesson in their responsibilities from someone to which they are liable.
mabbo 5y ago
I think there is some selection bias in this. And I say this as someone who has recently quit working at Amazon (after many years there). People who get fired are far more likely to leave reviews on blind. And the whole performance improvement plan process that proceeds being fired takes place between the employee and the SDM. It may be the case that their org leadership told the SDM to cut their lowest ranked person to make the org's "Unregretted Rate of Attrition" quota for the year. From the employees point of view, this was purely some kind of malicious move by a terrible SDM. In reality, it's an SDM who wants to keep their job in a sociopathic system that enforces minimum rates of firing people to "keep the bar high". Salaries are rising for engineers across the industry, in part because of the 'great resignation' going on. Make no mistake: Amazon would not raise salaries because of angry reviews on Blind. They would only raise wages if they saw too many people choosing to quit or not accept job offers in favour of other companies. Probably entirely based on a formula that used those numbers as inputs.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- rewma 5y ago
  > People who get fired are far more likely to leave reviews on blind. It is said that the average tenure at Amazon is two years. By your measuring stick, a company that is a revolving door does have the nasty tendency to leave a lot of its employees with plenty of reasons to complain.
  - ctvo 5y ago
    There's nothing extraordinary about Amazon having a 2 year tenure average. Here's a somewhat dated (I'd guess it's gotten even shorter since) article from 2018 listing many more company tenures: https://www.inc.com/business-insider/tech-companies-employee-turnover-average-tenure-silicon-valley.html https://www.inc.com/business-insider/tech-companies-employee... There are many known companies with ~2 years give or take.
    - Plasmoid 5y ago
ActorNightly 5y ago
While what you say may be true, I urge everyone reading this thread not to make personal opinions solely on stuff posted online that does not have hard evidence associated with it.
mataug 5y ago
The reality is that the SDMs are cogs in the machine as well. If a director asks the SDM why an employee isn't performing, and the SDM responds with any reason that doesn't support the organisation's goals, the director / VP is going to ask the SDM to get rid of the employee to meet Amazon's infamous URA quota[1]. If the SDM refuses, they are going to find another SDM who will do the job. At the same time, the following is also true > A significant percentage of SDMs believe they must "keep a high bar" and remove any dissenting subordinates. > The difference going forwards for Amazon is that the stock is mostly stagnant, and so employees are no longer putting up with miserable harsh working conditions, the financial incentives are no longer there. This is why Amazon is now importing a lot of international engineers, especially from Amazon India. Employees on L1 visa can't refuse the harsh working conditions, unless they are willing to take a huge pay cut and move back. [1]: https://archive.is/44DyG https://archive.is/44DyG

debacle 5y ago

What is the blind app?

pabl8k 5y ago
It's a forum for people at tech companies to anonymously talk to other people at their companies in a private forum, or with people at other companies publicly to all members. They validate employment using your email address. As could be expected many of the topics devolve into toxic messes, but there is some useful discussion.
- ajb 5y ago
  Only available to people in the US and South Korea at the moment, apparently. A pity, but I guess they need lawyers in every country they do business in.
  - 0xy 5y ago
    This isn't true, there's plenty of non-US people on Blind including me.
    - ajb 5y ago
      Currently to register in the app you have to select US or South Korea. They are setting a strong expectation that you should only do so from one of those countries, which makes it seem unlikely to me that I will find any colleagues -most of move would not think to fake their location. They also won't let you leave a review without a location in the US or South Korea. Makes it all a bit pointless if your company is not in those countries. Maybe they changed this since you registered?
      - 0xy 5y ago
        No, just select US. There's plenty of foreigners still.
- jasonladuke0311 5y ago
  Yep. It sucks in many, many ways, but it also is full of info on negotiation, interview processes at many companies, and salary/offer sharing. I had no idea how much more money I could be making until I signed up there. Deleted the app as soon as I signed an offer sheet.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
friedman23 5y ago
teamblind.com
shreyansj 5y ago
teamblind.com
enra 5y ago
It's 3rd party app that you can join your company's forum if you have an email address with the company domain. It's like Nextdoor but for employees of a particular company where people can vent, spread rumors, and at times share useful information.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ctvo 5y ago
One of the most toxic environments on the internet, filled with people who define themselves by their employment at big tech, and how large their salaries are. Think WallStreetBets meets tech but with less self-deprecation and emotional maturity, if you can imagine it.

seattle_spring 5y ago

In my ~15 year career I've met a lot of people that have gone on and worked at almost every big company imaginable. For some reason an outsized amount of people that I hated working with ended up as SDMs at Amazon. The list of people I hate is very, very small too, so it seems like more than a coincidence.

darkmarmot 5y ago
For me the high correlation seems to be with Facebook.
- w0mbat 5y ago
  Yeah me too. All the assholes went to Facebook. Only one person I like went there, and he quit.
  - scruple 5y ago
    Interesting. My (small, n=3) list of supreme assholes who I never want to work with again also ended up at Facebook.
    - carlivar 5y ago
      I told Facebook recruiters to stop contacting me because I will never work for them due to my personal ethics. Maybe others have also done this and Facebook's talent pool is the remaining assholes.
      - scruple 5y ago
        I know a few people who've gone there and left within 1-2 years. I know exactly 1 person who is a very nice and competent engineer who was miserable there for their first year but they eventually found a team that they were happy with and they are still there today, probably 3-4 years later. But, yes, it seems to me that, especially given that last anecdote, the place is awash with egotistical assholes.

twalla 5y ago

One of the things I do to get Amazon recruiters to leave me the hell alone is to respond to their emails with a link to the most recent public AMZN snafu and urge them to quit - it's funny/sad how each time I respond I can quickly find 3-5 new links no more than a few months old.

radicalbyte 5y ago
I just tell them how much it would cost to get me to up and move to Canada or the US to work for them, just to be equal to my situation here in Europe. That usually stops them pretty quickly :)
- xtracto 5y ago
  Haha, this is the way. Over the last 2 years I started to receive a lot of unwanted recruit spam both in my email and through Linkedin. I used to ignore them and get angry. Now my response is quite straightforward: Sure, I am happy to talk if you can offer me $250,000 USD, Work from Home (I live in Mexico) and X, Y, Z benefits that I currently have. This also applies for the ones that want to have a call to you for a "mysterious client" ( particularly for exec positions), usually just wasting your time. You are the one that contacted me, if you want to get my time better be for something good. It usually isn't.
mabbo 5y ago
A thought: be nice to recruiters. They're generally nice people who are underpaid for the work they do (usually). They're in a really tough business. And if you want a selfish take: Maybe today they're working for Amazon, but tomorrow they may be doing the same job at your dream company. They have too many people to try reaching out to, and they may remember your name.
- erikerikson 5y ago
  +1 For years I asked them to put me on their do not contact list. I eventually asked someone with authority. Whenever I am still contacted by managers, I simply forward that email with a polite note to that stakeholder. I get apologies and they get a lesson in their responsibilities from someone to which they are liable.

mabbo 5y ago

I think there is some selection bias in this. And I say this as someone who has recently quit working at Amazon (after many years there). People who get fired are far more likely to leave reviews on blind. And the whole performance improvement plan process that proceeds being fired takes place between the employee and the SDM. It may be the case that their org leadership told the SDM to cut their lowest ranked person to make the org's "Unregretted Rate of Attrition" quota for the year. From the employees point of view, this was purely some kind of malicious move by a terrible SDM. In reality, it's an SDM who wants to keep their job in a sociopathic system that enforces minimum rates of firing people to "keep the bar high". Salaries are rising for engineers across the industry, in part because of the 'great resignation' going on. Make no mistake: Amazon would not raise salaries because of angry reviews on Blind. They would only raise wages if they saw too many people choosing to quit or not accept job offers in favour of other companies. Probably entirely based on a formula that used those numbers as inputs.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rewma 5y ago
> People who get fired are far more likely to leave reviews on blind. It is said that the average tenure at Amazon is two years. By your measuring stick, a company that is a revolving door does have the nasty tendency to leave a lot of its employees with plenty of reasons to complain.
- ctvo 5y ago
  There's nothing extraordinary about Amazon having a 2 year tenure average. Here's a somewhat dated (I'd guess it's gotten even shorter since) article from 2018 listing many more company tenures: https://www.inc.com/business-insider/tech-companies-employee-turnover-average-tenure-silicon-valley.html https://www.inc.com/business-insider/tech-companies-employee... There are many known companies with ~2 years give or take.
  - Plasmoid 5y ago

ActorNightly 5y ago

While what you say may be true, I urge everyone reading this thread not to make personal opinions solely on stuff posted online that does not have hard evidence associated with it.

mataug 5y ago

The reality is that the SDMs are cogs in the machine as well. If a director asks the SDM why an employee isn't performing, and the SDM responds with any reason that doesn't support the organisation's goals, the director / VP is going to ask the SDM to get rid of the employee to meet Amazon's infamous URA quota[1]. If the SDM refuses, they are going to find another SDM who will do the job. At the same time, the following is also true > A significant percentage of SDMs believe they must "keep a high bar" and remove any dissenting subordinates. > The difference going forwards for Amazon is that the stock is mostly stagnant, and so employees are no longer putting up with miserable harsh working conditions, the financial incentives are no longer there. This is why Amazon is now importing a lot of international engineers, especially from Amazon India. Employees on L1 visa can't refuse the harsh working conditions, unless they are willing to take a huge pay cut and move back. [1]: https://archive.is/44DyG https://archive.is/44DyG