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A tip: If anyone finds themselves in a tragic situation like this where they can’t work but also can’t afford to take leave, investigate your short and long-ter

A tip: If anyone finds themselves in a tragic situation like this where they can’t work but also can’t afford to take leave, investigate your short and long-term disability benefits ASAP. Also read up on the documentation necessary to begin disability claims. Engage with a doctor early on who can document the severe depressive symptoms that are preventing work (which the author specifically cites in his anecdote). Do it as early as possible to generate a documentation trail. Don’t wait until you’re close to being terminated to begin documenting anything because that will make the claim much weaker compared to someone with months of doctor’s notes documenting the situation. I can’t speak to Amazon’s specific benefits, but most big tech companies I’ve worked for have provided some base level short and long term disability coverage as part of their core benefits, partially to avoid situations like this where employees are unable to work due to external circumstances but are unable to go on leave.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
CaliforniaKarl 5y ago
Another HN user posted—and then deleted—this comment: > I worry that many people in such a situation may not have the right frame of mind to be able to find, read, understand, and absorb what is normally quite dry reading material requiring often ending in something requiring exceptional perseverance. (I noticed because I was writing a reply.) I think it’s a good comment! And I think that is why you do it now. It’s just like how every flight begins with the safety briefing. Learn your company’s policies and procedures now, when you don’t need them. And refresh your memory regularly.
- gruez 5y ago
  > It’s just like how every flight begins with the safety briefing. Learn your company’s policies and procedures now, when you don’t need them. And refresh your memory regularly. That's more of a consequence of how we're irrationally afraid of flying than anything else. AFAIK you're far more likely to die of a building fire than a plane crash, yet how many people actually check their hotel's evacuation plan when they first enter the room?
  - hnlmorg 5y ago
    Checking your hotels evacuation plan is something the guest has to choose to do, which isn't the case with flight safety briefings. Fire drills would be a closer comparison with regards to fire safety. As an aside, up until a few years ago I was one of those people that did check hotel evacuation plans. I suffered from a lot of habitual ticks back then though and I suspect checking evacuation plans might have been one of them.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  That’s actually misleading, but a common misconception: The process is much less demanding than trying to continue working a demanding job at Amazon, for example. Disability claims are a common target for fraud and abuse so getting some early documentation from a medical professional is important. Engaging with medical professionals is something anyone with debilitating depression should be doing ASAP anyway, so it’s not much of an extra step just for the claim. The rest can be started by calling the disability insurance and asking about the process. Some company’s HR teams might even help direct employees to the benefit because they’d rather retain the employee if possible and also use the insurance for its intended purpose of covering periods of disability (rather than firing the employee or paying for someone who is unable to perform). YMMV with how much you trust HR departments, though, so best to call the disability insurance company first.
  - Domenic_S 5y ago
    In addition, in three of the Big Tech SV companies I’ve worked for, the leave process isn’t even handled in-house. They contract a 3rd party who tells the company “yes this person is going on valid medical leave, expected return date mm/dd/yy” and they handle getting doctor’s notes and so forth. It is surprisingly private and straightforward.
- filmgirlcw 5y ago
  Absolutely! Know what your policies are as soon as you join any company — but this is triply true for a FAANG. All of the information at a FAANG is in your intranet. As you say, learn those policies and procedures now and refresh them. I’ve made a lot of decisions that have been counter to my own self-interest in my professional life (usually out of a misguided feeling of loyalty), but I have been very good at knowing policies and procedures (and for getting stuff stated explicitly in my contract before signing anything) and it has come in handy on a number of occasions. Know your rights. And know them before you need to use them.
- divbzero 5y ago
  Reminds me that I should send out a short “how to” guide to my family on where and how to file claims for support. Makes it easier to take action if needed with minimal mental effort.
ucm_edge 5y ago
Very much this. You always want to be asking HR for an accommodation that is protected by law. Then HR enters into the mode of protecting the company by ensuring they don't get in trouble for violating the law. You go in and say "Hey my wife is dying and my performance is probably going to be impacted, can something be done?", HR may opt to 'protect' the company by starting to build a case for terminating a low performing employee.
- tomhallett 5y ago
  Oh wow. This (especially with respect to the mental model of the incentives for how a company works on the inside) should be taught in school.
  - teekert 5y ago
    You mean as a way to show kids that no morality exists in a context that allows one to be a faceless HR department? Despicable.
    - vkou 5y ago
      You make not like how sociopathic bureaucracies running society operate, but it's important to educate children on how not to get screwed by them.
      - teekert 5y ago
        Is it though? Children learn by example, it's better to shown them things we deem normal and/or desired. Things like compassion. Even when being part of a faceless organization. It's about knowing that people far away are still people that love their children too. It is how we prevent ourselves from repeating the darker pages of our collective history.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  > You go in and say "Hey my wife is dying and my performance is probably going to be impacted, can something be done?", HR may opt to 'protect' the company by starting to build a case for terminating a low performing employee. That’s the cynical approach, but most companies don’t actually want to lose valuable employees. This is why they have disability insurance coverage in the first place to help cover those gaps (while having the insurance foot the bill). Also, in this case the author says he voluntarily warned them his wife was dying of cancer during the interview process. If HR wanted to get rid of him for that, they would have simply found an excuse to not hire him. Instead they gave him an offer.
alberth 5y ago
In the US, the Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA) provides certain employees with up to 12 weeks of unpaid, job-protected leave per year. It also requires that their group health benefits be maintained during the leave.
- junar 5y ago
  Author seems to mention that Amazon did give him the chance to take FMLA, and he decided against it. > I had a long talk with HR. The response from them was, okay, you have two options here: You go on family leave, or you can perform. Those are your two options. I was thinking, if I take family leave, I get no income. I remember talking to my wife about it and saying, I can’t believe these are my options. So, I ended up trying my best to power through with the added pressure of knowing my boss wasn’t happy with me, even though I’m not sure what I did.
  - abandonliberty 5y ago
    While there's clearly stories of abusive amzn practices, this makes the entire piece seem very entitled. If a person can't do the work they were hired for, they don't usually get paid. That's why there's FLMA, disability insurance, and vacations. Am I missing something? Does Amzn represent themselves any differently? We're only getting one side of the story, and for all we know this person could've been incredibly toxic.
    - cycomachead 5y ago
      There's quite a difference between "I can't perform at my full capacity" and "Go home because you can't do any work". And no doubt, unpaid leave in the midst of costly medical bills (even with insurance costs at up) seems like a poor option. It sounds to me like the author was asking "can you cut me some slack?", which doesn't seem like an unreasonable question. I'm sure there's a million creative ways an employer could have tried to come up with a solution, even if it's not the most desirable... (Part time work? Delaying a review cycle? Just letting a month of work go?) I'm an educator—and obviously school is quite different from a job—but when a student is struggling outside of class, you figure out ways to still help them learn! Telling someone to withdraw from a course is certainly a necessary and valid option, but it's far from the first thing I'd present to a student. If I were a manager, hell yes, I would try to modify someone's role or duties before just saying "don't come in". And, yes, this is one side of the story, but if this person were toxic, they could have been fired at any time and for that reason. (I'm going to assume this person is reasonably truthful, otherwise there's nothing to discuss about a fake story, IMO.)
marricks 5y ago
Totally, with all the free time I have between performing at work and caring for my dying partner I’ll be sure to study applicable law, meet with my doctor to get a note, then defend myself to HR
loudtieblahblah 5y ago
gotta love that to engage with stuff like this we need to navigate a Brazil level of bureaucratic bullshit to cover our asses. Go to the therapist a bunch, create a paper trail, dig through fine print of short/long term leave.. as if the guy wasn't deal with enough between his work and wife as it was. it's just sad that to find a way to best help yourself, you must suffer more, shoulder more, have more chewing up your time and limited ability to deal with mounting stress. and people wonder why random people snap and blow away 15 random people at their office.
- marricks 5y ago
  Last year a story like this would have more comments questioning the company's policy, or at least the ones that did wouldn't be down voted. Now it looks like times have changed a bit and more pro corporate winds are blowing...
codegeek 5y ago
In the United States, here is a starting point for FMLA (Family and Medical Leave Act) https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fmla https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fmla You have to also check your specific state law and go from there. I would google "FMLA <statename>" for example.
tfehring 5y ago
For those of us who are thankfully not in a situation like this currently, it's still worth reading up on those benefits. Obviously the best time to deal with those things is before you need them. Virtually all employer-provided long-term disability coverage terminates when you leave your job or shortly thereafter without the option to continue your coverage, so if you're pushed out or become unable to work before you formally meet the insurer's definition of "disabled" you're SOL. Also, most LTD plans (both group and individual) either exclude mental health conditions or place significant limits on the benefits you can claim for those conditions - e.g., they'll only pay out for one year, or up to a certain (low) dollar amount. For those reasons, I recommend that most middle- to high-income people carry individual (i.e., not employer-sponsored) long-term disability insurance. For a very rough indication on price, I got my policy when I was 28, and I pay ~$100/month for coverage that would give me $72k/year in (tax-free) income through age 67.
dpweb 5y ago
Yes, and know your legal employment rights in the state where you work. For God's sake, do not rely on your managers or companies compassion or to make 'rational' decisions. Worst thing is to stay on and continually underperform. The lawyer simply 'sending a letter' is no good. They should be there to advise on - is the company acting legally here. Assuming they are, disability for these mental issues seems very appropriate in this situation. Heartbreaking story.
Arete314159 5y ago
That's very good advice, but another data point, I had a medical issue, and I had a very hard time qualifying for short term disability. My illness made me sick about 50% of the time, intermittently. The disability company told me that they'd cover me if I was sick for 15 days straight but not, say, 15 days out of a 30 day period.
junar 5y ago
There's a public summary of Amazon's benefits. I don't see anything that really changes things for the author, besides the unpaid leave he already mentioned. In particular, disability insurance seems to only cover the employee, not the spouse. https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/benefitsoverview-us https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/benefitsoverview-us
raxxorrax 5y ago
It also allows the company to plan eventual absence of an employee, which is important to keep things running. Still, a company as large as Amazon has no excuse for this behavior in my opinion.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

CaliforniaKarl 5y ago

Another HN user posted—and then deleted—this comment: > I worry that many people in such a situation may not have the right frame of mind to be able to find, read, understand, and absorb what is normally quite dry reading material requiring often ending in something requiring exceptional perseverance. (I noticed because I was writing a reply.) I think it’s a good comment! And I think that is why you do it now. It’s just like how every flight begins with the safety briefing. Learn your company’s policies and procedures now, when you don’t need them. And refresh your memory regularly.

gruez 5y ago
> It’s just like how every flight begins with the safety briefing. Learn your company’s policies and procedures now, when you don’t need them. And refresh your memory regularly. That's more of a consequence of how we're irrationally afraid of flying than anything else. AFAIK you're far more likely to die of a building fire than a plane crash, yet how many people actually check their hotel's evacuation plan when they first enter the room?
- hnlmorg 5y ago
  Checking your hotels evacuation plan is something the guest has to choose to do, which isn't the case with flight safety briefings. Fire drills would be a closer comparison with regards to fire safety. As an aside, up until a few years ago I was one of those people that did check hotel evacuation plans. I suffered from a lot of habitual ticks back then though and I suspect checking evacuation plans might have been one of them.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
That’s actually misleading, but a common misconception: The process is much less demanding than trying to continue working a demanding job at Amazon, for example. Disability claims are a common target for fraud and abuse so getting some early documentation from a medical professional is important. Engaging with medical professionals is something anyone with debilitating depression should be doing ASAP anyway, so it’s not much of an extra step just for the claim. The rest can be started by calling the disability insurance and asking about the process. Some company’s HR teams might even help direct employees to the benefit because they’d rather retain the employee if possible and also use the insurance for its intended purpose of covering periods of disability (rather than firing the employee or paying for someone who is unable to perform). YMMV with how much you trust HR departments, though, so best to call the disability insurance company first.
- Domenic_S 5y ago
  In addition, in three of the Big Tech SV companies I’ve worked for, the leave process isn’t even handled in-house. They contract a 3rd party who tells the company “yes this person is going on valid medical leave, expected return date mm/dd/yy” and they handle getting doctor’s notes and so forth. It is surprisingly private and straightforward.
filmgirlcw 5y ago
Absolutely! Know what your policies are as soon as you join any company — but this is triply true for a FAANG. All of the information at a FAANG is in your intranet. As you say, learn those policies and procedures now and refresh them. I’ve made a lot of decisions that have been counter to my own self-interest in my professional life (usually out of a misguided feeling of loyalty), but I have been very good at knowing policies and procedures (and for getting stuff stated explicitly in my contract before signing anything) and it has come in handy on a number of occasions. Know your rights. And know them before you need to use them.
divbzero 5y ago
Reminds me that I should send out a short “how to” guide to my family on where and how to file claims for support. Makes it easier to take action if needed with minimal mental effort.

ucm_edge 5y ago

Very much this. You always want to be asking HR for an accommodation that is protected by law. Then HR enters into the mode of protecting the company by ensuring they don't get in trouble for violating the law. You go in and say "Hey my wife is dying and my performance is probably going to be impacted, can something be done?", HR may opt to 'protect' the company by starting to build a case for terminating a low performing employee.

tomhallett 5y ago
Oh wow. This (especially with respect to the mental model of the incentives for how a company works on the inside) should be taught in school.
- teekert 5y ago
  You mean as a way to show kids that no morality exists in a context that allows one to be a faceless HR department? Despicable.
  - vkou 5y ago
    You make not like how sociopathic bureaucracies running society operate, but it's important to educate children on how not to get screwed by them.
    - teekert 5y ago
      Is it though? Children learn by example, it's better to shown them things we deem normal and/or desired. Things like compassion. Even when being part of a faceless organization. It's about knowing that people far away are still people that love their children too. It is how we prevent ourselves from repeating the darker pages of our collective history.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> You go in and say "Hey my wife is dying and my performance is probably going to be impacted, can something be done?", HR may opt to 'protect' the company by starting to build a case for terminating a low performing employee. That’s the cynical approach, but most companies don’t actually want to lose valuable employees. This is why they have disability insurance coverage in the first place to help cover those gaps (while having the insurance foot the bill). Also, in this case the author says he voluntarily warned them his wife was dying of cancer during the interview process. If HR wanted to get rid of him for that, they would have simply found an excuse to not hire him. Instead they gave him an offer.

alberth 5y ago

In the US, the Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA) provides certain employees with up to 12 weeks of unpaid, job-protected leave per year. It also requires that their group health benefits be maintained during the leave.

junar 5y ago
Author seems to mention that Amazon did give him the chance to take FMLA, and he decided against it. > I had a long talk with HR. The response from them was, okay, you have two options here: You go on family leave, or you can perform. Those are your two options. I was thinking, if I take family leave, I get no income. I remember talking to my wife about it and saying, I can’t believe these are my options. So, I ended up trying my best to power through with the added pressure of knowing my boss wasn’t happy with me, even though I’m not sure what I did.
- abandonliberty 5y ago
  While there's clearly stories of abusive amzn practices, this makes the entire piece seem very entitled. If a person can't do the work they were hired for, they don't usually get paid. That's why there's FLMA, disability insurance, and vacations. Am I missing something? Does Amzn represent themselves any differently? We're only getting one side of the story, and for all we know this person could've been incredibly toxic.
  - cycomachead 5y ago
    There's quite a difference between "I can't perform at my full capacity" and "Go home because you can't do any work". And no doubt, unpaid leave in the midst of costly medical bills (even with insurance costs at up) seems like a poor option. It sounds to me like the author was asking "can you cut me some slack?", which doesn't seem like an unreasonable question. I'm sure there's a million creative ways an employer could have tried to come up with a solution, even if it's not the most desirable... (Part time work? Delaying a review cycle? Just letting a month of work go?) I'm an educator—and obviously school is quite different from a job—but when a student is struggling outside of class, you figure out ways to still help them learn! Telling someone to withdraw from a course is certainly a necessary and valid option, but it's far from the first thing I'd present to a student. If I were a manager, hell yes, I would try to modify someone's role or duties before just saying "don't come in". And, yes, this is one side of the story, but if this person were toxic, they could have been fired at any time and for that reason. (I'm going to assume this person is reasonably truthful, otherwise there's nothing to discuss about a fake story, IMO.)

marricks 5y ago

Totally, with all the free time I have between performing at work and caring for my dying partner I’ll be sure to study applicable law, meet with my doctor to get a note, then defend myself to HR

loudtieblahblah 5y ago

gotta love that to engage with stuff like this we need to navigate a Brazil level of bureaucratic bullshit to cover our asses. Go to the therapist a bunch, create a paper trail, dig through fine print of short/long term leave.. as if the guy wasn't deal with enough between his work and wife as it was. it's just sad that to find a way to best help yourself, you must suffer more, shoulder more, have more chewing up your time and limited ability to deal with mounting stress. and people wonder why random people snap and blow away 15 random people at their office.

marricks 5y ago
Last year a story like this would have more comments questioning the company's policy, or at least the ones that did wouldn't be down voted. Now it looks like times have changed a bit and more pro corporate winds are blowing...

codegeek 5y ago

In the United States, here is a starting point for FMLA (Family and Medical Leave Act) https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fmla https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fmla You have to also check your specific state law and go from there. I would google "FMLA <statename>" for example.

tfehring 5y ago

For those of us who are thankfully not in a situation like this currently, it's still worth reading up on those benefits. Obviously the best time to deal with those things is before you need them. Virtually all employer-provided long-term disability coverage terminates when you leave your job or shortly thereafter without the option to continue your coverage, so if you're pushed out or become unable to work before you formally meet the insurer's definition of "disabled" you're SOL. Also, most LTD plans (both group and individual) either exclude mental health conditions or place significant limits on the benefits you can claim for those conditions - e.g., they'll only pay out for one year, or up to a certain (low) dollar amount. For those reasons, I recommend that most middle- to high-income people carry individual (i.e., not employer-sponsored) long-term disability insurance. For a very rough indication on price, I got my policy when I was 28, and I pay ~$100/month for coverage that would give me $72k/year in (tax-free) income through age 67.

dpweb 5y ago

Yes, and know your legal employment rights in the state where you work. For God's sake, do not rely on your managers or companies compassion or to make 'rational' decisions. Worst thing is to stay on and continually underperform. The lawyer simply 'sending a letter' is no good. They should be there to advise on - is the company acting legally here. Assuming they are, disability for these mental issues seems very appropriate in this situation. Heartbreaking story.

Arete314159 5y ago

That's very good advice, but another data point, I had a medical issue, and I had a very hard time qualifying for short term disability. My illness made me sick about 50% of the time, intermittently. The disability company told me that they'd cover me if I was sick for 15 days straight but not, say, 15 days out of a 30 day period.

junar 5y ago

There's a public summary of Amazon's benefits. I don't see anything that really changes things for the author, besides the unpaid leave he already mentioned. In particular, disability insurance seems to only cover the employee, not the spouse. https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/benefitsoverview-us https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/benefitsoverview-us

raxxorrax 5y ago

It also allows the company to plan eventual absence of an employee, which is important to keep things running. Still, a company as large as Amazon has no excuse for this behavior in my opinion.