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Ed Zitron just wrote about this, and I agree with him: The whole conversation around “revenge bedtime procrastination” is a frustrating example - it is the ide

Ed Zitron just wrote about this, and I agree with him: The whole conversation around “revenge bedtime procrastination” is a frustrating example - it is the idea that we are staying up late doing things we want to do instead of going to bed, which is otherwise known as “being a person.” I’ve seen several different articles about it, going into depths about “the why” of people staying awake doing stuff before bed. The answer is probably that they’re intellectually stimulated by the thing they’re doing and like doing it and are more interested in the thing than going to sleep. Big deal! But it’s now yet another codified entity for people to chew over and ask themselves about - am I “revenge bedtime procrastinating?” A take that seems profound and thoughtful, but is laser-focused on being shared by people saying “hey, I also do stuff instead of going to bed!” Entire articles now exist of people talking about why they stay awake instead of sleeping, as if that’s new, or thoughtful. And now people have a new term for something that didn’t need a term, and can bring intellectualism to “I stayed up until 1am playing Slay The Spire.” https://ez.substack.com/p/hot-takes-and-the-new-portable-intellectualism https://ez.substack.com/p/hot-takes-and-the-new-portable-int...

rosstex 5y ago
>intellectually stimulated by the thing they’re doing and like doing it This is the flaw in Ed's argument imo. Addictions don't need to be intellectually stimulating or enjoyable.
- frereubu 5y ago
  I agree. It's stimulation, but what the article talks about is relentless scrolling rather than anything intellectual. When I'm intellectually stimulated by something I feel great afterwards, and even if I'm tired the next morning I feel like it was worth it. When I find myself having gone into a scrolling trance for 45 minutes when it feels like 15 should have passed, I feel rubbish.
  - gowld 5y ago
    And intellectual stimulation works much better if you do it during your waking hours, not when you are a sleep-deprived zombie.
- kritiko 5y ago
  maybe "intellectually stimulated" is poor phrasing. But I think if you were to poll somebody staying up past their bedtime, they would say that they prefer their current activity to sleep in the moment. I.e. that they like doing it. Not to get too far afield, but how much evidence is there that gaming or reading or scrolling social media or whatever activities supposedly constitute "revenge bedtime procrastination" actually meet some criteria of addiction?
  - twicetwice 5y ago
    No, most times that's not true for me. I often even consciously think "ugh, I'm exhausted, why aren't I asleep right now" and yet still feel "stuck"—sometimes for hours more! I'll even finish what I was doing—scrolling HN, for example—and then cast about desperately for some new distraction, even though I know that what I want to do most, & will feel best, is going to sleep.
  - lthornberry 5y ago
    You clearly don't experience this phenomenon. I'm jealous! But no, the whole problem is that I'm staying up late scrolling my phone even though sleep would be much more satisfying. And I can tell you that, in the moment! It's just hard to actually put my phone down and go to sleep.
    - kritiko 5y ago
      I experience this phenomenon. I have made poor sleep hygiene decisions often in my life. What I'd dispute is that I actually prefer sleep in that moment. Maybe I'd prefer to be asleep. But when I'm on Twitter past midnight, generally I am conscious of the fact that I'm choosing to be reckless and have some fun instead of trying to fall asleep.
      - Apocryphon 5y ago
        Revenge bedtime procrastinators are aware of that too. But in that moment, the recklessness overrides your better judgment. So how can you say when you "choose" to be reckless, you are not indulging in the same akrasia that addicts do?
pdpi 5y ago
With all due respect, this is nonsense written by someone who doesn't deal with this problem. This argument comes from people seeing movement from A to B, and assuming all movement from A to B is identical. This particular pattern is that they're motivated to move toward B (and the fact they started at A is incidental), and can't understand that other people can move from A to B because they're motivated to move away from A (and ending up at B is irrelevant). For an extreme example: A Saudi man and a Saudi woman both moving to Norway. The man might be motivated to move towards a country with snow where he can ski, while the woman is motivated to move away from somewhere where she has limited rights. I understand (and sometimes fall prey to) the stereotypical Civilization "one more turn" phenomenon, and have e.g. booked holidays and pulled an all-nighter to power through a new Warcraft expansion or some such nonsense — a clear case of "movement toward". But I also have anxiety issues, and this sort of "movement away from" procrastination is very much part of how it manifests itself. The two are distinct things that feel very, very different internally. Ultimately, I don't actually care what it is that I'm doing, scrolling through reddit or playing a game, or even tidying up the house. I might even be exhausted and struggling to stay awake — the point is I don't want to go to bed, because high anxiety usually triggers my brain going into uncomfortable thoughts when I go to bed, and because going to bed puts me that much closer to the next day's anxieties and stresses. A different (and ultimately unhealthy) sort of "movement toward" is the choice to not go to bed as an act of self determination by way of rebellion. Sort of "I don't feel in control so I exercise control on the one thing I feel I can, consequences be damned". The important part isn't the thing you're doing, it's that you're choosing to do it. AIUI, self-harm works along these same lines. In short: please don't patronise people struggling with real problems by telling them they're just over-intellectualising things.
- rosstex 5y ago
  >going to bed puts me that much closer to the next day's anxieties and stresses Rarely is this cycle of self-harm behavior expressed so plainly. Sorry you are dealing with this.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  Regardless of the people struggling with actual problems, most people are probably doing exactly what the original author says. At least, I do both. I can on one hand try to stay awake because I’m absolutely convinced I’ll die in my sleep. Or on the other hand (most days when my anxiety has not flared to ridiculous levels) it’s just the first time during the day that I have some time that is truly to myself, so I can read and comment without interruption.
zck 5y ago
Often, revenge bedtime procrastination is doing things we don't want to do instead of going to bed.
a13n 5y ago
> it is the idea that we are staying up late doing things we want to do instead of going to bed, which is otherwise known as “being a person.” When you are hungry, you get angry more easily. This is also known as "being a person". But knowing this fact helps you realize when you are only angry because you're hungry, which can help you avoid conflicts with friends/family. Understanding the science behind "being a person" is valuable in improving your daily life. Understanding why people revenge bedtime procrastinate can help people avoid doing so. > The answer is probably that they’re intellectually stimulated by the thing they’re doing and like doing it and are more interested in the thing than going to sleep. This isn't the answer. There's a strong correlation between hours worked / stress level and likelihood of staying up too late. This is why "revenge" bedtime procrastinate is such a fantastic description. You're getting revenge on your workaholic attitude. You spent too much time doing things you didn't want to do, so you're protesting by staying up late doing things you do want to do. > And now people have a new term for something that didn’t need a term, and can bring intellectualism to “I stayed up until 1am playing Slay The Spire.” Just because you don't experience something yourself and you don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
- gowld 5y ago
  Interesting. Someone should start a scientific inquiry into human mental state and behavior. HN engineer types would love it. We could call it "brainology". More seriously: > staying up late doing things you do want to do. That's not revenge procrastination. Revenge procrastination, and why it's bad, is "staying up late doing things you know isn't good for you, out of spite and a desperate need for a sense that you are in control of your time"
  - a13n 5y ago
    What you want to do and what you know isn't good for you can be the same thing. Consider cigarettes or alcohol as obvious examples.
  - nextaccountic 5y ago
    The problem here is what "want" means. When we want an heroin dose because we are craving it, but we also want to stop because it's fucking with us, what do you want? Is "want" related to your long term goals, or short term desires?
burnished 5y ago
>bring intellectualism to “I stayed up until 1am playing Slay The Spire.” The point is that it isn't doing something fun like playing a game you enjoy, which we can all understand as being a sort of trade off, its where instead of going to bed you do sort of.. mindless, pointless, unpleasant things like refresh the same feed(reddit, HN, what have you) or browse mindlessly and for much longer than anticipated. Maybe you just haven't experienced it? I have. It is very different from times where I make decisions that leave me worse off in the future.. when I ask myself "why did I do that?" for drinking or staying out late I usually have an answer. For another set of behaviors, where the term 'revenge bedtime procrastination' feels like a shockingly apt description, I have no answer. Maybe you can better understand this as people finding words for their feelings.
Apocryphon 5y ago
Maybe more people are staying up past what is healthy as part of the greater breakdown in work-life balance as part of the pandemic. Also see the flood of articles about burnout. The pandemic is a very real material change, with very real material effects on labor, see the great resignation. So revenge bedtime procrastination is not just a media-invented bugbear, but quite possibly part of a very real change that has occurred over the past two years.

rosstex 5y ago

>intellectually stimulated by the thing they’re doing and like doing it This is the flaw in Ed's argument imo. Addictions don't need to be intellectually stimulating or enjoyable.

frereubu 5y ago
I agree. It's stimulation, but what the article talks about is relentless scrolling rather than anything intellectual. When I'm intellectually stimulated by something I feel great afterwards, and even if I'm tired the next morning I feel like it was worth it. When I find myself having gone into a scrolling trance for 45 minutes when it feels like 15 should have passed, I feel rubbish.
- gowld 5y ago
  And intellectual stimulation works much better if you do it during your waking hours, not when you are a sleep-deprived zombie.
kritiko 5y ago
maybe "intellectually stimulated" is poor phrasing. But I think if you were to poll somebody staying up past their bedtime, they would say that they prefer their current activity to sleep in the moment. I.e. that they like doing it. Not to get too far afield, but how much evidence is there that gaming or reading or scrolling social media or whatever activities supposedly constitute "revenge bedtime procrastination" actually meet some criteria of addiction?
- twicetwice 5y ago
  No, most times that's not true for me. I often even consciously think "ugh, I'm exhausted, why aren't I asleep right now" and yet still feel "stuck"—sometimes for hours more! I'll even finish what I was doing—scrolling HN, for example—and then cast about desperately for some new distraction, even though I know that what I want to do most, & will feel best, is going to sleep.
- lthornberry 5y ago
  You clearly don't experience this phenomenon. I'm jealous! But no, the whole problem is that I'm staying up late scrolling my phone even though sleep would be much more satisfying. And I can tell you that, in the moment! It's just hard to actually put my phone down and go to sleep.
  - kritiko 5y ago
    I experience this phenomenon. I have made poor sleep hygiene decisions often in my life. What I'd dispute is that I actually prefer sleep in that moment. Maybe I'd prefer to be asleep. But when I'm on Twitter past midnight, generally I am conscious of the fact that I'm choosing to be reckless and have some fun instead of trying to fall asleep.
    - Apocryphon 5y ago
      Revenge bedtime procrastinators are aware of that too. But in that moment, the recklessness overrides your better judgment. So how can you say when you "choose" to be reckless, you are not indulging in the same akrasia that addicts do?

pdpi 5y ago

With all due respect, this is nonsense written by someone who doesn't deal with this problem. This argument comes from people seeing movement from A to B, and assuming all movement from A to B is identical. This particular pattern is that they're motivated to move toward B (and the fact they started at A is incidental), and can't understand that other people can move from A to B because they're motivated to move away from A (and ending up at B is irrelevant). For an extreme example: A Saudi man and a Saudi woman both moving to Norway. The man might be motivated to move towards a country with snow where he can ski, while the woman is motivated to move away from somewhere where she has limited rights. I understand (and sometimes fall prey to) the stereotypical Civilization "one more turn" phenomenon, and have e.g. booked holidays and pulled an all-nighter to power through a new Warcraft expansion or some such nonsense — a clear case of "movement toward". But I also have anxiety issues, and this sort of "movement away from" procrastination is very much part of how it manifests itself. The two are distinct things that feel very, very different internally. Ultimately, I don't actually care what it is that I'm doing, scrolling through reddit or playing a game, or even tidying up the house. I might even be exhausted and struggling to stay awake — the point is I don't want to go to bed, because high anxiety usually triggers my brain going into uncomfortable thoughts when I go to bed, and because going to bed puts me that much closer to the next day's anxieties and stresses. A different (and ultimately unhealthy) sort of "movement toward" is the choice to not go to bed as an act of self determination by way of rebellion. Sort of "I don't feel in control so I exercise control on the one thing I feel I can, consequences be damned". The important part isn't the thing you're doing, it's that you're choosing to do it. AIUI, self-harm works along these same lines. In short: please don't patronise people struggling with real problems by telling them they're just over-intellectualising things.

rosstex 5y ago
>going to bed puts me that much closer to the next day's anxieties and stresses Rarely is this cycle of self-harm behavior expressed so plainly. Sorry you are dealing with this.
Aeolun 5y ago
Regardless of the people struggling with actual problems, most people are probably doing exactly what the original author says. At least, I do both. I can on one hand try to stay awake because I’m absolutely convinced I’ll die in my sleep. Or on the other hand (most days when my anxiety has not flared to ridiculous levels) it’s just the first time during the day that I have some time that is truly to myself, so I can read and comment without interruption.

zck 5y ago

Often, revenge bedtime procrastination is doing things we don't want to do instead of going to bed.

a13n 5y ago

> it is the idea that we are staying up late doing things we want to do instead of going to bed, which is otherwise known as “being a person.” When you are hungry, you get angry more easily. This is also known as "being a person". But knowing this fact helps you realize when you are only angry because you're hungry, which can help you avoid conflicts with friends/family. Understanding the science behind "being a person" is valuable in improving your daily life. Understanding why people revenge bedtime procrastinate can help people avoid doing so. > The answer is probably that they’re intellectually stimulated by the thing they’re doing and like doing it and are more interested in the thing than going to sleep. This isn't the answer. There's a strong correlation between hours worked / stress level and likelihood of staying up too late. This is why "revenge" bedtime procrastinate is such a fantastic description. You're getting revenge on your workaholic attitude. You spent too much time doing things you didn't want to do, so you're protesting by staying up late doing things you do want to do. > And now people have a new term for something that didn’t need a term, and can bring intellectualism to “I stayed up until 1am playing Slay The Spire.” Just because you don't experience something yourself and you don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

gowld 5y ago
Interesting. Someone should start a scientific inquiry into human mental state and behavior. HN engineer types would love it. We could call it "brainology". More seriously: > staying up late doing things you do want to do. That's not revenge procrastination. Revenge procrastination, and why it's bad, is "staying up late doing things you know isn't good for you, out of spite and a desperate need for a sense that you are in control of your time"
- a13n 5y ago
  What you want to do and what you know isn't good for you can be the same thing. Consider cigarettes or alcohol as obvious examples.
- nextaccountic 5y ago
  The problem here is what "want" means. When we want an heroin dose because we are craving it, but we also want to stop because it's fucking with us, what do you want? Is "want" related to your long term goals, or short term desires?

burnished 5y ago

>bring intellectualism to “I stayed up until 1am playing Slay The Spire.” The point is that it isn't doing something fun like playing a game you enjoy, which we can all understand as being a sort of trade off, its where instead of going to bed you do sort of.. mindless, pointless, unpleasant things like refresh the same feed(reddit, HN, what have you) or browse mindlessly and for much longer than anticipated. Maybe you just haven't experienced it? I have. It is very different from times where I make decisions that leave me worse off in the future.. when I ask myself "why did I do that?" for drinking or staying out late I usually have an answer. For another set of behaviors, where the term 'revenge bedtime procrastination' feels like a shockingly apt description, I have no answer. Maybe you can better understand this as people finding words for their feelings.

Apocryphon 5y ago

Maybe more people are staying up past what is healthy as part of the greater breakdown in work-life balance as part of the pandemic. Also see the flood of articles about burnout. The pandemic is a very real material change, with very real material effects on labor, see the great resignation. So revenge bedtime procrastination is not just a media-invented bugbear, but quite possibly part of a very real change that has occurred over the past two years.