14 ms·

Revenge Bedtime Procrastination

279 points by monkey_monkey 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
black_13 5y ago
I just go to sleep at 10 and wake up early do as terrible a job as I can do.
joeberon 5y ago
It's sad but at least on days where I'm that busy I don't have time to feel down or demotivated. Literally the pace and busy-ness forces me to remain focussed. I end up feeling depressed and deflated if I have room to breath. I think that is just me though and for most people having lots of free time is obviously better.
eurasiantiger 5y ago
I feel the problem is more in that we are forced to work N hours per day, when realistically, we are not getting any more stuff DONE than if we were working N/2 hours per day. Unnecessary meetings and other bad practices eat up not only our time, but our ONLY time. We only have one life. WHY are we forced to use 30-50% of our lives to be able to ”enjoy” the rest?
- pc86 5y ago
  I see this sentiment posted again and again. Maybe it's correct, but I'm skeptical. You're always free to consult, plenty of people work 10-20 hours a week and make more money. But I think, for most people, they would earn less. They're not as productive as they think they are. And sure there are absolutely a lot of meetings that could be "look at the Wiki I updated" emails or Slack messages, but a lot of meetings are necessary for the functioning of the business, not just your individual productivity.
  - nickjj 5y ago
    I spent a big portion of my career doing this and it's often not as simple as thinking you can cut your hours in half and now you're free to do whatever for the rest of the time. For example if you did 20 hours a week, that's 80 hours a month at $200 / hour ends up being $192,000 a year. That's a really competitive and great wage but you'll find it unlikely to be able to work only those hours you want without constraint. You might want to work 10 hours on Monday and Tuesday and take every other day off, but how are you going to get new business? Maybe start writing hundreds of blog posts and making videos, maybe start a podcast and make some courses or write a book. Before you know it you're working 240 hours a week all-in and feeling guilty if you try to peel back the hours because there's no paid time off when you work for yourself unless you're in the top 1% where you're wildly successful and make huge amounts of money for multiple years to the point where you have enough fuck you money to work on anything you want on your own terms for the rest of your life and drop everyone who requests otherwise. Plus beyond that, a lot of contracts will expect a drip of input and output, not a massive amount of work quickly and then do nothing for weeks. A ton of my 10 hour a week contracts were doing something small every day, or at least most days and generally being available to at least respond to an email within a reasonable amount of time (a day, but ideally within a few hours). This isn't true freedom. It's freedom in the sense that you can decide which contracts you take on but you won't last doing contract work if you make a habit of letting your clients down.
    - nickjj 5y ago
      I think this goes without saying but I meant to say 240 hours a month not 240 hours a week haha. It's too late to edit the above post.
    - pc86 5y ago
      I am aware of this, I consulted full-time for 4 or 5 years and it all but paid for my first house. I was merely responding to the very prevalent - and likely incorrect in most cases - sentiment that being "stuck at work" for 30-50% of your time is what's actually preventing you from getting stuff done.
      - 5y ago
- canadaduane 5y ago
  I want to agree, but I feel the context of our human history is missing here. If you go back a mere 150 years, 50% of us were farmers[1] who spent most of our time (winter excluded) being "forced" to subsist. If I understand the thrust of your argument, though, I think what you're saying is that we have such an abundance of productive capability today that it's possible for most of us not to have to work for subsistence any more, if only the "leisure time" were more evenly distributed? In other words, could your question be rephrased as, "Why is enjoyment of one's time unevenly distributed in a modern high-efficiency economy?" [1] https://www.vox.com/a/explain-food-america#list-3 https://www.vox.com/a/explain-food-america#list-3
  - mountainb 5y ago
    Field cotton plantation slaves worked 12-16 hour days six days per week. Independent yeoman farmers worked less but there are fewer records so it is harder to make statistical arguments about how much the typical yeoman farmer worked. There are certain types of farm chores that must be done every day (like milking dairy animals) and cleaning out stalls. Others are more seasonal like weeding and the level of work is very different depending on climate. Another thing to consider is that firewood, charcoal, and dried manure are the fuel sources which are all labor intensive to gather. So, workdays of sunup to sundown aren't abnormal but there are lots of different jobs to do on a homestead that are on different timetables. It's not the regimented kind of work you would see in a factory or on a commercial plantation. Winter is also a lot of work when you have animals, actually more work because they are just sitting in a building eating and shitting the entire season. Cleaning out shit in the winter is a deeply unpleasant chore. Some kinds of animals are culled for winter but no matter what you are still taking care of at least some of them.
    - Ekaros 5y ago
      Also it wasn't like winter was free time, but used to make the tools and repair them. Often in poorly lit and cramped indoors. With not so productive tools. Making textiles for clothes was lot of work.
  - musicale 5y ago
- aerosmile 5y ago
  > WHY are we forced to use 30-50% of our lives to be able to ”enjoy” the rest? Never in the history of the world have people had to work fewer hours per week. Something's telling me that we are not any happier than previous generations. We are definitely going to keep reducing the work hours further, and perhaps we will in fact reach the point of no work at all - but will we be happier than today? Just look at all the people who retire and decline quickly. There's something about work that's natural to the concept of human race, and I, for one, would continue to work even if I didn't have to. But - and that's a big but - I enjoy my work. It allows me to use my brain and express myself in ways that I never would be able to without the support of my team and my company. It multiplies my ability to make an impact on others and to see a meaning in waking up every morning. This is not going to be a popular opinion, but everyone here has the ability to find themselves in a position of fulfilling work. In my case, it took 20 years of hard work, of which the first year was awful and it gradually got better, leading to where I am today. I don't think I possess any special qualities, and I certainly didn't come from money or any type of privilege (I wasn't even born in the US). But I was willing to work my ass off, and it all paid off. Assuming you come from a similar background as mine, you cannot escape work. Think of it as a prison sentence of anywhere from 1-20 years. You're in jail now, and you can't get out of it - what do you do? Sit in a corner and feel sorry for yourself, or try to have meaningful connections with your jail mates, exercise your body, read books, learn something new every day. I know which way I would go. Inequality is at the very core of how the universe operates. We all have different genes, and some of us are stronger, taller, cuter, and/or healthier than others. Some of us are dealt good cards and some are dealt bad ones. Heck, some of us are born on Earth, and there might be other species born on another planet, dealing with a very different climate other circumstances - it's highly unlikely that there's another carbon copy of our planet. Life is different for everyone, and if you spend your life looking at someone who has to work less, you're going to miss the essence of this universe. From what you wrote, your life will have a heavy dose of work associated with it, and that makes it similar to mine. It's ok, there's a lot of pride, joy and fun to be had. It all starts with realizing that it's about living your best life and not someone else's.
  - mehphp 5y ago
    > it's highly unlikely that there's another carbon copy of our planet. Given the sheer size of the universe, I'd guess the opposite. Unless you literally mean and exact copy.
- adolph 5y ago
  Unnecessary is very subjective. Something unnecessary for one team member may be crucial to another. One might say that the cost of specialization and focus is a growing amount of time not spent on one's area of specialization and focus. Communication overhead increases as the number of people increases. Due to combinatorial explosion, the number of different communication channels increases rapidly with the number of people.[3] Everyone working on the same task needs to keep in sync, so as more people are added they spend more time trying to find out what everyone else is doing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month#Communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month#Communi...
- Chris2048 5y ago
  If you are paid for those hours, it doesn't really matter if they are necessary or not. > We only have one life. WHY are we forced to use 30-50% of our lives to be able to "enjoy" the rest? What do you need to enjoy life? If it's anything from other people, they value their time too.
  - eurasiantiger 5y ago
    ”If you are paid for those hours, it doesn't really matter if they are necessary or not.” That is the ”I just work here” attitude. ”What do you need to enjoy life?” Freedom from financial serfdom and time to pursue creative avenues. I suppose I can always move to the forests.
    - Chris2048 5y ago
      > That is the ”I just work here” attitude. If you called the shots you wouldn't have to have unnecessary meetings; so yes, you do "just work here". > freedom from financial serfdom and time to pursue creative avenues. that doesn't really put a $-amount on it. What are your creative pursuits? How much does "freedom" require the cooperation of other people?
      - eurasiantiger 5y ago
        I don’t ”just work here”; I could and often do skip extra meetings, but sometimes it’s better to not want to be an asshole towards other people, you know? You can’t put a dollar value directly on life, creativity or freedom; it is only possible through avoidance of death, parting with the fruits of creativity, and the various binds we put ourselves in.
        Chris2048 5y ago
        I don't know what you mean by "be an asshole towards other people" - it sound like you can unofficially skip the occasional meeting, not call them off for being unproductive. The dollar value of freedom is what it costs. If freedom is painting, the dollar value is painting supplies.
deworms 5y ago
I read the first paragraph and I can't imagine that's what people's lives could be like in a civilized country. I would never accept mixing job responsibilities with private life in this totally overwhelming way. What is described there is a hellish existence and a quick path towards a suicide, not a life worth living.
- suction 5y ago
  May I ask where you are living and how you support yourself? No personal details, of course.
  - tharne 5y ago
    Most tech jobs outside the FAANGS and the startup bubble are 9-5, e.g. working as a developer for a regional bank or a local hospital. You don't get the enormous salaries, but it's a nice life overall. And re: where to live, generally anywhere outside the trendy metros. There are tons of boring jobs in boring suburbs that allow you to live your life.
    - deworms 5y ago
      You can have an interesting, well paid job and a life outside of it. This is a false dichotomy, don't spread it.
      - tharne 5y ago
        Good point, I can see how I may have implied that it was an either/or. I wasn't arguing that that was the only path. Just one that's there if you want it.
    - pc86 5y ago
      And you can make $300k TC in a FAANG and work 35-40 hours a week. Plenty of people do it - the minority, sure, but only because FAANG jobs by definition are the minority. Google and Microsoft in particular are notorious for decent WLB, and MS's comp has come way up in the last few years to be nearly the same level as similar tech companies.
thomasedwards 5y ago
996 needs to stop being a thing
- stackbutterflow 5y ago
  I wonder if it's going to spread to the rest or the world instead.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
habeebtc 5y ago
I definitely do this, and have thought about why. Sometimes it is "me time" as TFA suggests. Sometimes after a busy day, I need to unwind a bit before sleep, because I am still kind of amped up from the hustle and bustle.
- ggrrhh_ta 5y ago
  sometimes utter exhaustion helps you have a wonderful sleep that really makes you feel rested (only sometimes).
kritiko 5y ago
Ed Zitron just wrote about this, and I agree with him: The whole conversation around “revenge bedtime procrastination” is a frustrating example - it is the idea that we are staying up late doing things we want to do instead of going to bed, which is otherwise known as “being a person.” I’ve seen several different articles about it, going into depths about “the why” of people staying awake doing stuff before bed. The answer is probably that they’re intellectually stimulated by the thing they’re doing and like doing it and are more interested in the thing than going to sleep. Big deal! But it’s now yet another codified entity for people to chew over and ask themselves about - am I “revenge bedtime procrastinating?” A take that seems profound and thoughtful, but is laser-focused on being shared by people saying “hey, I also do stuff instead of going to bed!” Entire articles now exist of people talking about why they stay awake instead of sleeping, as if that’s new, or thoughtful. And now people have a new term for something that didn’t need a term, and can bring intellectualism to “I stayed up until 1am playing Slay The Spire.” https://ez.substack.com/p/hot-takes-and-the-new-portable-intellectualism https://ez.substack.com/p/hot-takes-and-the-new-portable-int...
- rosstex 5y ago
  >intellectually stimulated by the thing they’re doing and like doing it This is the flaw in Ed's argument imo. Addictions don't need to be intellectually stimulating or enjoyable.
  - frereubu 5y ago
    I agree. It's stimulation, but what the article talks about is relentless scrolling rather than anything intellectual. When I'm intellectually stimulated by something I feel great afterwards, and even if I'm tired the next morning I feel like it was worth it. When I find myself having gone into a scrolling trance for 45 minutes when it feels like 15 should have passed, I feel rubbish.
    - gowld 5y ago
      And intellectual stimulation works much better if you do it during your waking hours, not when you are a sleep-deprived zombie.
tejohnso 5y ago
This is a strange way to use the word revenge. You're lashing out against a society / culture that overworks by depriving yourself of the small opportunity for rest that you have?
dhosek 5y ago
I think that it's also a depression thing. Certainly, when my mood is down, it's more likely that I'll do low-emotional-calorie activities in bed instead of sleep.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
shrubby 5y ago
One interpretation of this was also that we you're lacking the feeling control in your life you can retaliate by staying awake late and feel tired later. I've seen some cases that might well fit this but I don't think I want to jump into conclusions here.
- pbronez 5y ago
  Exactly. That was my experience. I snapped out of it by recognizing that giving into RBP was a loss of control in itself. I get a lot more “fuck you Ill do want I want” satisfaction by going to bed ASAP, waking up early, and using those early hours intentionally.
  - maxfurman 5y ago
    Or you can do what I do: go to bed early, tell yourself that you're going to get up early and do things, and then sleep until your normal time anyway. That way you don't have fun _and_ you feel bad about lying to yourself! But at least you get enough sleep.
    - shrubby 5y ago
      Heh. That's one way. I actually started to get to bed after my kid so I'm usually asleep by nine and wake up without an alarm around four. It has been great few years to have few silent hours to think before heading to work and I don't think I'll ever want to go back from this.
      - edelans 5y ago
        interesting : I've often felt that this was the way to go. But on the other end, when I stay up at night, get into the "flow", I really like that feeling that my time is not "bounded". ok, it's bounded because at some point I'll need to sleep, but you get the idea. I have the feeling that working on a project in the morning before kids and wife get up in the morning would put additional stress (like "sh*t, I have only 30min left to solve this"). That would make the thing not nearly as enjoyable as in the evening. How do you relate to this feeling ? Maybe those morning hours should be dedicated to tasks that have a highly predictable duration (working out / cleaning inbox / ...) and not to "discovery mode" (when you want to solve something but have no idea on how to do it).
hedberg10 5y ago
Let's identify the problems here: Long work hours -which might or might not be bullshit Addicting novelty seeking -small dopamine hits -and it's enablement -phones -never ending scrolling -being rich to have access Procrastination -mix of fear, uncertainty, belief it will be better at a later time I believe all of these should be tackled individually.
iSnow 5y ago
Since having older kids, this is completely trashing my wake/sleep rhythm and starting to impact my work. I want some time to do the things I care about in my own time, damnit. I don't want to be externally structured all the time. I don't feel too bad about staying up late instead of being responsible, but I start to feel burn-out creeping up, and I don't know what to do.
codr7 5y ago
I like this one, always makes me laugh because it's so miserably accurate: https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/the-52-stages-of-insomnia https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/the-52-stages-of-insomni...
pbronez 5y ago
I found the “revenge bedtime procrastination” concept to be very empowering. It put a name to a thing I was doing, and frustrated by, and thus let me see it more clearly. For me, there’s a big difference between an intentional decision to stay up late doing something valuable (which could be recreational) and RBP. RBP is a black hole that captures my attention and wastes my time without rejuvenating me. Knowing the RBP concept empowers me to be intentional with my evening hours. Sometimes I go to bed early, sometimes I stay up and play, but I never want to lose that time to unintentional mindlessness.
- beerandt 5y ago
  This might sound too obvious to say, but set an alarm for your bedtime and 30 mins before (to start your wind down). It will either get you in the habit of going to sleep at a "planned" time, or will at least make you aware of your procrastination from that point on, which can help you self-evaluate the problem.
- ehnto 5y ago
  It works for me to manage my phone use throughout the day too. I give myself a rule that any task on my phone has to be intentional. "I am checking for an email", "I am checking my bank balance", "I am organizing a meet with a friend". Even recreation time on the phone has to be intentional, "I am reading this specific article on my phone". Otherwise you end up caught on the seemingly endless but shallow stream of content the internet provides through feed sites and apps. If I set the rule of being intentional it's really obvious when I'm not being intentional, and should put the phone down. I also make a habit of closing the phone or turning off my computer before I actually feel comfortable doing so. The insidious part of feed procrastination is that you're never satisfied, so you can't find a comfortable "End point", you just have to get into the habit of shutting it down mid procrastinating.
  - fragmede 5y ago
    How does that work with things that aren't procrastination, like doing the dishes or folding laundry? Because I want to stop the whole time (though I've developed hacks to help me get them done, regardless), but training myself to stop doing things I want to be doing seems like it would make it easier for my brain to stop doing things I don't want to do!
romwell 5y ago
If you can relate to this, consider that it's very common with ADHD[1]. My life has greatly improved once I learned about it, and got it treated, instead of blaming myself for all the things I did (or couldn't do). I wrote up my experience here: https://romankogan.net/adhd https://romankogan.net/adhd [1] http://romankogan.net/adhd/#Revenge%20Bedtime http://romankogan.net/adhd/#Revenge%20Bedtime
- grillvogel 5y ago
  these are interesting, but its just a bunch of memes. any tips for managing?
  - romwell 5y ago
    A bunch of memes? There are 20,000+ words of notes there that are accompanied by comics (made specifically to raise ADHD awareness) and relatable memes. But hey, sure :) If you find the memes interesting, but more importantly - relatable, my best tip for managing would be to get an ADHD evaluation[1] and see if medication[2] works for you. You can also use this list to tell your therapist/coach about the issues you are struggling with - it's much easier when there's a list at hand. I simply pointed mine to this page. If you relate to just a couple of entries, then I don't have much advice. If you find many entries relatable on most days, then joining ADHD groups on social media, learning about it, getting self-help books specifically for people with ADHD, and, yes, medication will be a life-changing experience. Which case is it for you? [1]http://romankogan.net/adhd/#Diagnosis http://romankogan.net/adhd/#Diagnosis [2]http://romankogan.net/adhd/#Medication http://romankogan.net/adhd/#Medication
    - grillvogel 5y ago
      i can relate to most of the entries but i don't buy into medication. pretty much everyone would be more productive on amphetamines
      - romwell 5y ago
        If you relate to most of the entries, then you should definitely consider talking to a professional. There are many resources available to help with ADHD, first and foremost being understanding what works and what doesn't work with your ADHD brain. Regarding medication, there is a lot of unnecessary stigma around it. Please consider my experience with it: [1] to understand what I'm about to say. It's not about productivity. It's about not feeling pain associated with initiating, finishing, or switching tasks. It's about slowing the thoughts in your brain a bit so that you could find the first step more easily, and have more control over either not initiating other tasks, or switching out of something that you can't stop doing. You have to understand that most people don't have these issues to begin with. I have no idea what amphetamines do for them. For people with ADHD, medication is like glasses for the brain. It helps us see better. If somebody takes your glasses, they won't improve their vision - in fact, they will probably mess up their own. That's why both glasses and medication have to be prescribed by a professional. There is much more than medication though. It's about approaching the things you face in ways that work for you. It's understanding what strengths you have (e.g. acting efficiently in emergencies or under high pressure in critical tasks) vs. things that your brain isn't good at (estimating time, doing the same thing consistently, etc.) Going into that is way beyond the scope of a comment. There is a lot to learn. [1] https://romankogan.net/adhd#Medication https://romankogan.net/adhd#Medication
stopnamingnuts 5y ago
This strikes me as an issue that's widespread across groups but addressable almost entirely by individuals, which makes it perfect for abstract debate. ;) My partner does this. OTOH, I love sleep and feeling refreshed when I've had enough. She's open about being pretty driven and makes her choice based on what's important to her. Seems to me workism is part of that calculus. Balance usually requires opportunity cost. One has to value sleep, time for hobbies, time to spend with family... more than the real or perceptual carrot offered by wrapping one's identity in work. Or not. It's a choice regardless of whether made consciously or not. I'll finish by acknowledging there are structural inequalities that make this, for many, a choice from a set of equally unappealing options.
im_down_w_otp 5y ago
I'd never heard of this before. I absolutely stay up late on a regular basis after a long day of CEO-ing, parenting, etc. So, I can understand the dynamic to a degree. Though, my whole life I've had a complicated relationship with sleep and have always stayed up late. That said, given the origins of this curated concept, I can't really shake the feeling that it's a subtle attempt to stigmatize the things people are doing to still feel human in an otherwise dehumanizing context (e.g. "996 culture"). With the end result intended to be getting people to sleep more, so that they're more productive/predictable "996" workers, not so that they can do less "996"-ing. However, I expect the narrative frame of it being an act of "rebellion" to be interpreted and internalized differently based on different regional cultural factors, so the stigmatizing effect may not be universal.
spywaregorilla 5y ago
I think the definition is backwards. It's not revenge against anything. It's just normal procrastination. Most procrastination happens in the form of you have to do A, but you put it off to do B instead. Thus increasing the amount of time before A because you don't want to deal with it. Sleep doesn't count as time in many people's perceptions because you're not conscious for it. By doing B late into the night, A still arrives at the same time, but it expands the amount of experienced time before A.
- inanutshellus 5y ago
  I would've worded it as "petulantly delaying sleep". One is being immature and frustrated at the lack of planning and control in one's life, so one retaliatorally "plays" when one actually has the power to decide. There was an article not too long ago about overly-controlled/time-regimented children doing this same thing. When they have no power over how to spend their day, they decide to control their night, to their own detriment, health-wise.
- sershe 5y ago
  In some people (e.g. me) it takes the form of wanting to accomplish X before sleep, but being too tired/lazy/... to start, and so procrastinating a little bit, while still intending to do X. Then, as time progresses, I probably become less likely to start on X but I keep doing random stuff (sometimes useful, sometimes not) because some part of me thinks I cannot go to sleep because I haven't accomplished anything... sometimes it even feels like bargaining after the fact, e.g. I decided to do a much less important Y instead of X, to feel like at least something had been done. I've learned that if X isn't working out the best thing to do is to just force yourself to go to bed :)
rozab 5y ago
>most people procrastinate doing things that they don’t want to do. But people really do want to sleep. We procrastinate on bedtime, then, not because we’re “aversive” to it, but because we don’t want to stop doing the other, non-sleep thing that we’re doing. That statement implies the opposite? This whole article keeps making nonsensical logical leaps.
chrischen 5y ago
I think I do the opposite: revenge bedtime productivity. I end up wasting too much of the day doing something fun/interesting like gaming or sports, and I try to work late at night to compensate, even though I may as well go to sleep early and work early in the morning instead.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  I think both behaviors are linked by feeling peak autonomy before bedtime.
SeanFerree 5y ago
Excellent article!!
taurath 5y ago
Can I just note that it is not necessarily an effect of "too much work/responsibility", it is also a reaction to active stressors in your life. Social anxiety around roommates for example. Being unable to recharge yourself emotionally even if little is going on. One does not have to be time crunched to have this effect.

279 points by monkey_monkey 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

black_13 5y ago

I just go to sleep at 10 and wake up early do as terrible a job as I can do.

joeberon 5y ago

It's sad but at least on days where I'm that busy I don't have time to feel down or demotivated. Literally the pace and busy-ness forces me to remain focussed. I end up feeling depressed and deflated if I have room to breath. I think that is just me though and for most people having lots of free time is obviously better.

eurasiantiger 5y ago

I feel the problem is more in that we are forced to work N hours per day, when realistically, we are not getting any more stuff DONE than if we were working N/2 hours per day. Unnecessary meetings and other bad practices eat up not only our time, but our ONLY time. We only have one life. WHY are we forced to use 30-50% of our lives to be able to ”enjoy” the rest?

pc86 5y ago
I see this sentiment posted again and again. Maybe it's correct, but I'm skeptical. You're always free to consult, plenty of people work 10-20 hours a week and make more money. But I think, for most people, they would earn less. They're not as productive as they think they are. And sure there are absolutely a lot of meetings that could be "look at the Wiki I updated" emails or Slack messages, but a lot of meetings are necessary for the functioning of the business, not just your individual productivity.
- nickjj 5y ago
  I spent a big portion of my career doing this and it's often not as simple as thinking you can cut your hours in half and now you're free to do whatever for the rest of the time. For example if you did 20 hours a week, that's 80 hours a month at $200 / hour ends up being $192,000 a year. That's a really competitive and great wage but you'll find it unlikely to be able to work only those hours you want without constraint. You might want to work 10 hours on Monday and Tuesday and take every other day off, but how are you going to get new business? Maybe start writing hundreds of blog posts and making videos, maybe start a podcast and make some courses or write a book. Before you know it you're working 240 hours a week all-in and feeling guilty if you try to peel back the hours because there's no paid time off when you work for yourself unless you're in the top 1% where you're wildly successful and make huge amounts of money for multiple years to the point where you have enough fuck you money to work on anything you want on your own terms for the rest of your life and drop everyone who requests otherwise. Plus beyond that, a lot of contracts will expect a drip of input and output, not a massive amount of work quickly and then do nothing for weeks. A ton of my 10 hour a week contracts were doing something small every day, or at least most days and generally being available to at least respond to an email within a reasonable amount of time (a day, but ideally within a few hours). This isn't true freedom. It's freedom in the sense that you can decide which contracts you take on but you won't last doing contract work if you make a habit of letting your clients down.
  - nickjj 5y ago
    I think this goes without saying but I meant to say 240 hours a month not 240 hours a week haha. It's too late to edit the above post.
  - pc86 5y ago
    I am aware of this, I consulted full-time for 4 or 5 years and it all but paid for my first house. I was merely responding to the very prevalent - and likely incorrect in most cases - sentiment that being "stuck at work" for 30-50% of your time is what's actually preventing you from getting stuff done.
    - 5y ago
canadaduane 5y ago
I want to agree, but I feel the context of our human history is missing here. If you go back a mere 150 years, 50% of us were farmers[1] who spent most of our time (winter excluded) being "forced" to subsist. If I understand the thrust of your argument, though, I think what you're saying is that we have such an abundance of productive capability today that it's possible for most of us not to have to work for subsistence any more, if only the "leisure time" were more evenly distributed? In other words, could your question be rephrased as, "Why is enjoyment of one's time unevenly distributed in a modern high-efficiency economy?" [1] https://www.vox.com/a/explain-food-america#list-3 https://www.vox.com/a/explain-food-america#list-3
- mountainb 5y ago
  Field cotton plantation slaves worked 12-16 hour days six days per week. Independent yeoman farmers worked less but there are fewer records so it is harder to make statistical arguments about how much the typical yeoman farmer worked. There are certain types of farm chores that must be done every day (like milking dairy animals) and cleaning out stalls. Others are more seasonal like weeding and the level of work is very different depending on climate. Another thing to consider is that firewood, charcoal, and dried manure are the fuel sources which are all labor intensive to gather. So, workdays of sunup to sundown aren't abnormal but there are lots of different jobs to do on a homestead that are on different timetables. It's not the regimented kind of work you would see in a factory or on a commercial plantation. Winter is also a lot of work when you have animals, actually more work because they are just sitting in a building eating and shitting the entire season. Cleaning out shit in the winter is a deeply unpleasant chore. Some kinds of animals are culled for winter but no matter what you are still taking care of at least some of them.
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    Also it wasn't like winter was free time, but used to make the tools and repair them. Often in poorly lit and cramped indoors. With not so productive tools. Making textiles for clothes was lot of work.
- musicale 5y ago
aerosmile 5y ago
> WHY are we forced to use 30-50% of our lives to be able to ”enjoy” the rest? Never in the history of the world have people had to work fewer hours per week. Something's telling me that we are not any happier than previous generations. We are definitely going to keep reducing the work hours further, and perhaps we will in fact reach the point of no work at all - but will we be happier than today? Just look at all the people who retire and decline quickly. There's something about work that's natural to the concept of human race, and I, for one, would continue to work even if I didn't have to. But - and that's a big but - I enjoy my work. It allows me to use my brain and express myself in ways that I never would be able to without the support of my team and my company. It multiplies my ability to make an impact on others and to see a meaning in waking up every morning. This is not going to be a popular opinion, but everyone here has the ability to find themselves in a position of fulfilling work. In my case, it took 20 years of hard work, of which the first year was awful and it gradually got better, leading to where I am today. I don't think I possess any special qualities, and I certainly didn't come from money or any type of privilege (I wasn't even born in the US). But I was willing to work my ass off, and it all paid off. Assuming you come from a similar background as mine, you cannot escape work. Think of it as a prison sentence of anywhere from 1-20 years. You're in jail now, and you can't get out of it - what do you do? Sit in a corner and feel sorry for yourself, or try to have meaningful connections with your jail mates, exercise your body, read books, learn something new every day. I know which way I would go. Inequality is at the very core of how the universe operates. We all have different genes, and some of us are stronger, taller, cuter, and/or healthier than others. Some of us are dealt good cards and some are dealt bad ones. Heck, some of us are born on Earth, and there might be other species born on another planet, dealing with a very different climate other circumstances - it's highly unlikely that there's another carbon copy of our planet. Life is different for everyone, and if you spend your life looking at someone who has to work less, you're going to miss the essence of this universe. From what you wrote, your life will have a heavy dose of work associated with it, and that makes it similar to mine. It's ok, there's a lot of pride, joy and fun to be had. It all starts with realizing that it's about living your best life and not someone else's.
- mehphp 5y ago
  > it's highly unlikely that there's another carbon copy of our planet. Given the sheer size of the universe, I'd guess the opposite. Unless you literally mean and exact copy.
adolph 5y ago
Unnecessary is very subjective. Something unnecessary for one team member may be crucial to another. One might say that the cost of specialization and focus is a growing amount of time not spent on one's area of specialization and focus. Communication overhead increases as the number of people increases. Due to combinatorial explosion, the number of different communication channels increases rapidly with the number of people.[3] Everyone working on the same task needs to keep in sync, so as more people are added they spend more time trying to find out what everyone else is doing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month#Communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month#Communi...
Chris2048 5y ago
If you are paid for those hours, it doesn't really matter if they are necessary or not. > We only have one life. WHY are we forced to use 30-50% of our lives to be able to "enjoy" the rest? What do you need to enjoy life? If it's anything from other people, they value their time too.
- eurasiantiger 5y ago
  ”If you are paid for those hours, it doesn't really matter if they are necessary or not.” That is the ”I just work here” attitude. ”What do you need to enjoy life?” Freedom from financial serfdom and time to pursue creative avenues. I suppose I can always move to the forests.
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    > That is the ”I just work here” attitude. If you called the shots you wouldn't have to have unnecessary meetings; so yes, you do "just work here". > freedom from financial serfdom and time to pursue creative avenues. that doesn't really put a $-amount on it. What are your creative pursuits? How much does "freedom" require the cooperation of other people?
    - eurasiantiger 5y ago
      I don’t ”just work here”; I could and often do skip extra meetings, but sometimes it’s better to not want to be an asshole towards other people, you know? You can’t put a dollar value directly on life, creativity or freedom; it is only possible through avoidance of death, parting with the fruits of creativity, and the various binds we put ourselves in.
      - Chris2048 5y ago
        I don't know what you mean by "be an asshole towards other people" - it sound like you can unofficially skip the occasional meeting, not call them off for being unproductive. The dollar value of freedom is what it costs. If freedom is painting, the dollar value is painting supplies.

deworms 5y ago

I read the first paragraph and I can't imagine that's what people's lives could be like in a civilized country. I would never accept mixing job responsibilities with private life in this totally overwhelming way. What is described there is a hellish existence and a quick path towards a suicide, not a life worth living.

suction 5y ago
May I ask where you are living and how you support yourself? No personal details, of course.
- tharne 5y ago
  Most tech jobs outside the FAANGS and the startup bubble are 9-5, e.g. working as a developer for a regional bank or a local hospital. You don't get the enormous salaries, but it's a nice life overall. And re: where to live, generally anywhere outside the trendy metros. There are tons of boring jobs in boring suburbs that allow you to live your life.
  - deworms 5y ago
    You can have an interesting, well paid job and a life outside of it. This is a false dichotomy, don't spread it.
    - tharne 5y ago
      Good point, I can see how I may have implied that it was an either/or. I wasn't arguing that that was the only path. Just one that's there if you want it.
  - pc86 5y ago
    And you can make $300k TC in a FAANG and work 35-40 hours a week. Plenty of people do it - the minority, sure, but only because FAANG jobs by definition are the minority. Google and Microsoft in particular are notorious for decent WLB, and MS's comp has come way up in the last few years to be nearly the same level as similar tech companies.

thomasedwards 5y ago

996 needs to stop being a thing

stackbutterflow 5y ago
I wonder if it's going to spread to the rest or the world instead.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

habeebtc 5y ago

I definitely do this, and have thought about why. Sometimes it is "me time" as TFA suggests. Sometimes after a busy day, I need to unwind a bit before sleep, because I am still kind of amped up from the hustle and bustle.

ggrrhh_ta 5y ago
sometimes utter exhaustion helps you have a wonderful sleep that really makes you feel rested (only sometimes).

kritiko 5y ago

Ed Zitron just wrote about this, and I agree with him: The whole conversation around “revenge bedtime procrastination” is a frustrating example - it is the idea that we are staying up late doing things we want to do instead of going to bed, which is otherwise known as “being a person.” I’ve seen several different articles about it, going into depths about “the why” of people staying awake doing stuff before bed. The answer is probably that they’re intellectually stimulated by the thing they’re doing and like doing it and are more interested in the thing than going to sleep. Big deal! But it’s now yet another codified entity for people to chew over and ask themselves about - am I “revenge bedtime procrastinating?” A take that seems profound and thoughtful, but is laser-focused on being shared by people saying “hey, I also do stuff instead of going to bed!” Entire articles now exist of people talking about why they stay awake instead of sleeping, as if that’s new, or thoughtful. And now people have a new term for something that didn’t need a term, and can bring intellectualism to “I stayed up until 1am playing Slay The Spire.” https://ez.substack.com/p/hot-takes-and-the-new-portable-intellectualism https://ez.substack.com/p/hot-takes-and-the-new-portable-int...

rosstex 5y ago
>intellectually stimulated by the thing they’re doing and like doing it This is the flaw in Ed's argument imo. Addictions don't need to be intellectually stimulating or enjoyable.
- frereubu 5y ago
  I agree. It's stimulation, but what the article talks about is relentless scrolling rather than anything intellectual. When I'm intellectually stimulated by something I feel great afterwards, and even if I'm tired the next morning I feel like it was worth it. When I find myself having gone into a scrolling trance for 45 minutes when it feels like 15 should have passed, I feel rubbish.
  - gowld 5y ago
    And intellectual stimulation works much better if you do it during your waking hours, not when you are a sleep-deprived zombie.

tejohnso 5y ago

This is a strange way to use the word revenge. You're lashing out against a society / culture that overworks by depriving yourself of the small opportunity for rest that you have?

dhosek 5y ago

I think that it's also a depression thing. Certainly, when my mood is down, it's more likely that I'll do low-emotional-calorie activities in bed instead of sleep.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

shrubby 5y ago

One interpretation of this was also that we you're lacking the feeling control in your life you can retaliate by staying awake late and feel tired later. I've seen some cases that might well fit this but I don't think I want to jump into conclusions here.

pbronez 5y ago
Exactly. That was my experience. I snapped out of it by recognizing that giving into RBP was a loss of control in itself. I get a lot more “fuck you Ill do want I want” satisfaction by going to bed ASAP, waking up early, and using those early hours intentionally.
- maxfurman 5y ago
  Or you can do what I do: go to bed early, tell yourself that you're going to get up early and do things, and then sleep until your normal time anyway. That way you don't have fun _and_ you feel bad about lying to yourself! But at least you get enough sleep.
  - shrubby 5y ago
    Heh. That's one way. I actually started to get to bed after my kid so I'm usually asleep by nine and wake up without an alarm around four. It has been great few years to have few silent hours to think before heading to work and I don't think I'll ever want to go back from this.
    - edelans 5y ago
      interesting : I've often felt that this was the way to go. But on the other end, when I stay up at night, get into the "flow", I really like that feeling that my time is not "bounded". ok, it's bounded because at some point I'll need to sleep, but you get the idea. I have the feeling that working on a project in the morning before kids and wife get up in the morning would put additional stress (like "sh*t, I have only 30min left to solve this"). That would make the thing not nearly as enjoyable as in the evening. How do you relate to this feeling ? Maybe those morning hours should be dedicated to tasks that have a highly predictable duration (working out / cleaning inbox / ...) and not to "discovery mode" (when you want to solve something but have no idea on how to do it).

hedberg10 5y ago

Let's identify the problems here: Long work hours -which might or might not be bullshit Addicting novelty seeking -small dopamine hits -and it's enablement -phones -never ending scrolling -being rich to have access Procrastination -mix of fear, uncertainty, belief it will be better at a later time I believe all of these should be tackled individually.

iSnow 5y ago

Since having older kids, this is completely trashing my wake/sleep rhythm and starting to impact my work. I want some time to do the things I care about in my own time, damnit. I don't want to be externally structured all the time. I don't feel too bad about staying up late instead of being responsible, but I start to feel burn-out creeping up, and I don't know what to do.

codr7 5y ago

I like this one, always makes me laugh because it's so miserably accurate: https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/the-52-stages-of-insomnia https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/the-52-stages-of-insomni...

pbronez 5y ago

I found the “revenge bedtime procrastination” concept to be very empowering. It put a name to a thing I was doing, and frustrated by, and thus let me see it more clearly. For me, there’s a big difference between an intentional decision to stay up late doing something valuable (which could be recreational) and RBP. RBP is a black hole that captures my attention and wastes my time without rejuvenating me. Knowing the RBP concept empowers me to be intentional with my evening hours. Sometimes I go to bed early, sometimes I stay up and play, but I never want to lose that time to unintentional mindlessness.

beerandt 5y ago
This might sound too obvious to say, but set an alarm for your bedtime and 30 mins before (to start your wind down). It will either get you in the habit of going to sleep at a "planned" time, or will at least make you aware of your procrastination from that point on, which can help you self-evaluate the problem.
ehnto 5y ago
It works for me to manage my phone use throughout the day too. I give myself a rule that any task on my phone has to be intentional. "I am checking for an email", "I am checking my bank balance", "I am organizing a meet with a friend". Even recreation time on the phone has to be intentional, "I am reading this specific article on my phone". Otherwise you end up caught on the seemingly endless but shallow stream of content the internet provides through feed sites and apps. If I set the rule of being intentional it's really obvious when I'm not being intentional, and should put the phone down. I also make a habit of closing the phone or turning off my computer before I actually feel comfortable doing so. The insidious part of feed procrastination is that you're never satisfied, so you can't find a comfortable "End point", you just have to get into the habit of shutting it down mid procrastinating.
- fragmede 5y ago
  How does that work with things that aren't procrastination, like doing the dishes or folding laundry? Because I want to stop the whole time (though I've developed hacks to help me get them done, regardless), but training myself to stop doing things I want to be doing seems like it would make it easier for my brain to stop doing things I don't want to do!

romwell 5y ago

If you can relate to this, consider that it's very common with ADHD[1]. My life has greatly improved once I learned about it, and got it treated, instead of blaming myself for all the things I did (or couldn't do). I wrote up my experience here: https://romankogan.net/adhd https://romankogan.net/adhd [1] http://romankogan.net/adhd/#Revenge%20Bedtime http://romankogan.net/adhd/#Revenge%20Bedtime

grillvogel 5y ago
these are interesting, but its just a bunch of memes. any tips for managing?
- romwell 5y ago
  A bunch of memes? There are 20,000+ words of notes there that are accompanied by comics (made specifically to raise ADHD awareness) and relatable memes. But hey, sure :) If you find the memes interesting, but more importantly - relatable, my best tip for managing would be to get an ADHD evaluation[1] and see if medication[2] works for you. You can also use this list to tell your therapist/coach about the issues you are struggling with - it's much easier when there's a list at hand. I simply pointed mine to this page. If you relate to just a couple of entries, then I don't have much advice. If you find many entries relatable on most days, then joining ADHD groups on social media, learning about it, getting self-help books specifically for people with ADHD, and, yes, medication will be a life-changing experience. Which case is it for you? [1]http://romankogan.net/adhd/#Diagnosis http://romankogan.net/adhd/#Diagnosis [2]http://romankogan.net/adhd/#Medication http://romankogan.net/adhd/#Medication
  - grillvogel 5y ago
    i can relate to most of the entries but i don't buy into medication. pretty much everyone would be more productive on amphetamines
    - romwell 5y ago
      If you relate to most of the entries, then you should definitely consider talking to a professional. There are many resources available to help with ADHD, first and foremost being understanding what works and what doesn't work with your ADHD brain. Regarding medication, there is a lot of unnecessary stigma around it. Please consider my experience with it: [1] to understand what I'm about to say. It's not about productivity. It's about not feeling pain associated with initiating, finishing, or switching tasks. It's about slowing the thoughts in your brain a bit so that you could find the first step more easily, and have more control over either not initiating other tasks, or switching out of something that you can't stop doing. You have to understand that most people don't have these issues to begin with. I have no idea what amphetamines do for them. For people with ADHD, medication is like glasses for the brain. It helps us see better. If somebody takes your glasses, they won't improve their vision - in fact, they will probably mess up their own. That's why both glasses and medication have to be prescribed by a professional. There is much more than medication though. It's about approaching the things you face in ways that work for you. It's understanding what strengths you have (e.g. acting efficiently in emergencies or under high pressure in critical tasks) vs. things that your brain isn't good at (estimating time, doing the same thing consistently, etc.) Going into that is way beyond the scope of a comment. There is a lot to learn. [1] https://romankogan.net/adhd#Medication https://romankogan.net/adhd#Medication

stopnamingnuts 5y ago

This strikes me as an issue that's widespread across groups but addressable almost entirely by individuals, which makes it perfect for abstract debate. ;) My partner does this. OTOH, I love sleep and feeling refreshed when I've had enough. She's open about being pretty driven and makes her choice based on what's important to her. Seems to me workism is part of that calculus. Balance usually requires opportunity cost. One has to value sleep, time for hobbies, time to spend with family... more than the real or perceptual carrot offered by wrapping one's identity in work. Or not. It's a choice regardless of whether made consciously or not. I'll finish by acknowledging there are structural inequalities that make this, for many, a choice from a set of equally unappealing options.

im_down_w_otp 5y ago

I'd never heard of this before. I absolutely stay up late on a regular basis after a long day of CEO-ing, parenting, etc. So, I can understand the dynamic to a degree. Though, my whole life I've had a complicated relationship with sleep and have always stayed up late. That said, given the origins of this curated concept, I can't really shake the feeling that it's a subtle attempt to stigmatize the things people are doing to still feel human in an otherwise dehumanizing context (e.g. "996 culture"). With the end result intended to be getting people to sleep more, so that they're more productive/predictable "996" workers, not so that they can do less "996"-ing. However, I expect the narrative frame of it being an act of "rebellion" to be interpreted and internalized differently based on different regional cultural factors, so the stigmatizing effect may not be universal.

spywaregorilla 5y ago

I think the definition is backwards. It's not revenge against anything. It's just normal procrastination. Most procrastination happens in the form of you have to do A, but you put it off to do B instead. Thus increasing the amount of time before A because you don't want to deal with it. Sleep doesn't count as time in many people's perceptions because you're not conscious for it. By doing B late into the night, A still arrives at the same time, but it expands the amount of experienced time before A.

inanutshellus 5y ago
I would've worded it as "petulantly delaying sleep". One is being immature and frustrated at the lack of planning and control in one's life, so one retaliatorally "plays" when one actually has the power to decide. There was an article not too long ago about overly-controlled/time-regimented children doing this same thing. When they have no power over how to spend their day, they decide to control their night, to their own detriment, health-wise.
sershe 5y ago
In some people (e.g. me) it takes the form of wanting to accomplish X before sleep, but being too tired/lazy/... to start, and so procrastinating a little bit, while still intending to do X. Then, as time progresses, I probably become less likely to start on X but I keep doing random stuff (sometimes useful, sometimes not) because some part of me thinks I cannot go to sleep because I haven't accomplished anything... sometimes it even feels like bargaining after the fact, e.g. I decided to do a much less important Y instead of X, to feel like at least something had been done. I've learned that if X isn't working out the best thing to do is to just force yourself to go to bed :)

rozab 5y ago

>most people procrastinate doing things that they don’t want to do. But people really do want to sleep. We procrastinate on bedtime, then, not because we’re “aversive” to it, but because we don’t want to stop doing the other, non-sleep thing that we’re doing. That statement implies the opposite? This whole article keeps making nonsensical logical leaps.

chrischen 5y ago

I think I do the opposite: revenge bedtime productivity. I end up wasting too much of the day doing something fun/interesting like gaming or sports, and I try to work late at night to compensate, even though I may as well go to sleep early and work early in the morning instead.

Apocryphon 5y ago
I think both behaviors are linked by feeling peak autonomy before bedtime.

SeanFerree 5y ago

Excellent article!!

taurath 5y ago

Can I just note that it is not necessarily an effect of "too much work/responsibility", it is also a reaction to active stressors in your life. Social anxiety around roommates for example. Being unable to recharge yourself emotionally even if little is going on. One does not have to be time crunched to have this effect.