4 ms·

An extract from the summary page suggests a few things went wrong, but it seems like the fire was caused by liquid and electricity mixing: > ESV found a Megapa

An extract from the summary page suggests a few things went wrong, but it seems like the fire was caused by liquid and electricity mixing: > ESV found a Megapack cooling system leak caused a short circuit resulting in overheating that led to a fire in a nearby battery compartment, which consequently damaged two Megapacks. > There were further contributory factors with the Megapack in question being switched into an off-line service mode, resulting in the protection systems being inactive. > A 24-hour delay in connecting the batteries to the supervisory control and data acquisition (SCADA) system also meant there was no active monitoring of the Megapack alarms.

sitkack 5y ago
I would assume that each megapack would have zigbee for telemetry which should be always transmitting, even if the pack were in the off state. And the cooling system should be continuously monitored for faults. Not just inspected after filling.
- WJW 5y ago
  That it's hardware instead of software doesn't mean it can't be hacked together.
  - sitkack 5y ago
    Thermals are the number one aspect of battery engineering. For something that is to run under load in the Victorian heat, even more so. This isn't some weekend hackathon contest, Tesla is supposed to have the worlds best engineering. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Megapack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Megapack
    - WJW 5y ago
      Why would Tesla have the "worlds best" engineering? I don't think I have ever seen anyone ever claim that except for perhaps Tesla PR representatives. How would you even measure "best" in such a field? Cheapest? Best quality? Best value-for-money? Safest? Highest power density?
- aaron695 5y ago
  There are 212 megapacks. I would imagine this would be really fucking hard. Most larger, more expensive engineering units don't have this. I'm open to the idea, if it exists or there are similar setups then that would show it's possible. Else I'd guess this is like creating Facebook in a weekend. Easy to say. Regulations, security, false positives, unique software.
londons_explore 5y ago
I am very surprised in this conclusion... Normally if you have two high voltage wires being immersed in water, a large current flows, vaporising the water, and then the current stops when all the water has been evaporated. For the current to flow for long enough to heat the battery packs to cause a fire, there must have been a jet of water flowing for a long period of time. And no fusible links between that place and the battery. It really seems like either very bad luck, or bad system design, or both.
- algo_trader 5y ago
  Off topic: can we do a floating (mega-)mega-pack, and use passive water cooling? This should help costs, efficiency AND prolong life time Of course issues with sweet vs salt water
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    Sure you can do it, but it won't be reliable or cost effective. Passive water cooling in natural water tends to lead to seaweed and all kinds of sea creatures blocking up all heat exchange surfaces. In the case of a megapack, cooling isn't critical to safety - as long as you're happy to stop using a battery when too hot, it won't get hotter. The reason to cool is is so you can keep using the battery.
- mannykannot 5y ago
  The article puts it this way: "ESV found a Megapack cooling system leak caused a short circuit resulting in overheating that led to a fire in a nearby battery compartment." Nothing here implies that the damaging heat generation occurred at the location of the short circuit. It could have been at any point in the new current path created by the short circuit, depending on its resistance and the share of the overload current it carried.
- michaelt 5y ago
  A cooling system for something that's on fire sounds like exactly where there should be a jet of water flowing for a long period of time :)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Gepsens 5y ago
offline monitoring is what caused tchernobyl, when will ppl learn ?
- nathancahill 5y ago
  Were you going for Чеrnobyl?
  - jjoonathan 5y ago
    Were you going for t̷̨̆̏c̶̥̎h̸̡̄̅e̴̲͖̓r̶̨̎n̵̥̹̆̚o̴͇̐͊b̸̙͖̑̈́ỹ̴̲͛l̸̢̞͊?
- datameta 5y ago
  Latinized without the "t", as the Germans do, is closer to the true pronunciation.
smcleod 5y ago
> "no active monitoring" What the actual... how is something like this even allowed to be operational without monitoring?
- krisoft 5y ago
  It wasn’t operational, it was being comissioned. You folks are acting as if some huge crime against humanity happened here. In reality nobody got hurt, the company who messed up will pay to put it right. They already indicated (in the linked report) that they learned from the incident and changed multiple things in their systems and procedures as a result.
  - smcleod 5y ago
    It's a live (active) power source even if it's being commissioned. I don't think it's a crime against humanity but it sure created pollution and waste.
  - nomercy400 5y ago
    This. Lessons learned, improvements implemented.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Nobody ever got internet virtue points by keeping their cool. You gotta be Outraged(TM).
  - wolrah 5y ago
    > It wasn’t operational, it was being comissioned. You're telling me that you don't see a problem with the idea of starting up a bleeding edge system intended to store incredible amounts of energy without the monitoring systems connected? In general if you don't have a way to monitor an industrial-scale system you go in to your fail-safe state.
    - krisoft 5y ago
      > intended to store incredible amounts of energy Each of these Megapacks can contain 1.5% of the energy contained in a petrol station. :) Let’s not get ahead of ourselves, these are realy nice and big batteries. That being said the energies stored in them are far from incredible. These boxes were by all accounts manufactured in Nevada. They have been moved all the way to Victoria, lowered to the ground and hooked to the site’s wiring. They were not “charged” yet. The next step as part of the comissioning was to hook them up to the monitoring system before they are checked out. No matter when you hook them up to be monitored there is a step just before it when they are not monitored yet. > In general if you don't have a way to monitor an industrial-scale system you go in to your fail-safe state. That is indeed a great idea. And if you read the report you can see that after they hooked up each box they put them manually into “maintenance” mode. This mode de-energises all systems in the box. It totaly makes sense that they thought this procedure is the correct one to reach the fail-safe state you mention. Turns out they were wrong. They learned this now and changed their procedures.

sitkack 5y ago

I would assume that each megapack would have zigbee for telemetry which should be always transmitting, even if the pack were in the off state. And the cooling system should be continuously monitored for faults. Not just inspected after filling.

WJW 5y ago
That it's hardware instead of software doesn't mean it can't be hacked together.
- sitkack 5y ago
  Thermals are the number one aspect of battery engineering. For something that is to run under load in the Victorian heat, even more so. This isn't some weekend hackathon contest, Tesla is supposed to have the worlds best engineering. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Megapack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Megapack
  - WJW 5y ago
    Why would Tesla have the "worlds best" engineering? I don't think I have ever seen anyone ever claim that except for perhaps Tesla PR representatives. How would you even measure "best" in such a field? Cheapest? Best quality? Best value-for-money? Safest? Highest power density?
aaron695 5y ago
There are 212 megapacks. I would imagine this would be really fucking hard. Most larger, more expensive engineering units don't have this. I'm open to the idea, if it exists or there are similar setups then that would show it's possible. Else I'd guess this is like creating Facebook in a weekend. Easy to say. Regulations, security, false positives, unique software.

londons_explore 5y ago

I am very surprised in this conclusion... Normally if you have two high voltage wires being immersed in water, a large current flows, vaporising the water, and then the current stops when all the water has been evaporated. For the current to flow for long enough to heat the battery packs to cause a fire, there must have been a jet of water flowing for a long period of time. And no fusible links between that place and the battery. It really seems like either very bad luck, or bad system design, or both.

algo_trader 5y ago
Off topic: can we do a floating (mega-)mega-pack, and use passive water cooling? This should help costs, efficiency AND prolong life time Of course issues with sweet vs salt water
- londons_explore 5y ago
  Sure you can do it, but it won't be reliable or cost effective. Passive water cooling in natural water tends to lead to seaweed and all kinds of sea creatures blocking up all heat exchange surfaces. In the case of a megapack, cooling isn't critical to safety - as long as you're happy to stop using a battery when too hot, it won't get hotter. The reason to cool is is so you can keep using the battery.
mannykannot 5y ago
The article puts it this way: "ESV found a Megapack cooling system leak caused a short circuit resulting in overheating that led to a fire in a nearby battery compartment." Nothing here implies that the damaging heat generation occurred at the location of the short circuit. It could have been at any point in the new current path created by the short circuit, depending on its resistance and the share of the overload current it carried.
michaelt 5y ago
A cooling system for something that's on fire sounds like exactly where there should be a jet of water flowing for a long period of time :)

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Gepsens 5y ago

offline monitoring is what caused tchernobyl, when will ppl learn ?

nathancahill 5y ago
Were you going for Чеrnobyl?
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  Were you going for t̷̨̆̏c̶̥̎h̸̡̄̅e̴̲͖̓r̶̨̎n̵̥̹̆̚o̴͇̐͊b̸̙͖̑̈́ỹ̴̲͛l̸̢̞͊?
datameta 5y ago
Latinized without the "t", as the Germans do, is closer to the true pronunciation.

smcleod 5y ago

> "no active monitoring" What the actual... how is something like this even allowed to be operational without monitoring?

krisoft 5y ago
It wasn’t operational, it was being comissioned. You folks are acting as if some huge crime against humanity happened here. In reality nobody got hurt, the company who messed up will pay to put it right. They already indicated (in the linked report) that they learned from the incident and changed multiple things in their systems and procedures as a result.
- smcleod 5y ago
  It's a live (active) power source even if it's being commissioned. I don't think it's a crime against humanity but it sure created pollution and waste.
- nomercy400 5y ago
  This. Lessons learned, improvements implemented.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Nobody ever got internet virtue points by keeping their cool. You gotta be Outraged(TM).
- wolrah 5y ago
  > It wasn’t operational, it was being comissioned. You're telling me that you don't see a problem with the idea of starting up a bleeding edge system intended to store incredible amounts of energy without the monitoring systems connected? In general if you don't have a way to monitor an industrial-scale system you go in to your fail-safe state.
  - krisoft 5y ago
    > intended to store incredible amounts of energy Each of these Megapacks can contain 1.5% of the energy contained in a petrol station. :) Let’s not get ahead of ourselves, these are realy nice and big batteries. That being said the energies stored in them are far from incredible. These boxes were by all accounts manufactured in Nevada. They have been moved all the way to Victoria, lowered to the ground and hooked to the site’s wiring. They were not “charged” yet. The next step as part of the comissioning was to hook them up to the monitoring system before they are checked out. No matter when you hook them up to be monitored there is a step just before it when they are not monitored yet. > In general if you don't have a way to monitor an industrial-scale system you go in to your fail-safe state. That is indeed a great idea. And if you read the report you can see that after they hooked up each box they put them manually into “maintenance” mode. This mode de-energises all systems in the box. It totaly makes sense that they thought this procedure is the correct one to reach the fail-safe state you mention. Turns out they were wrong. They learned this now and changed their procedures.