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> Replace "China" with "The USA" and "Eastern" with "Western" and the other way around and not much of meaning or value would be lost. This is nonsense, and ba

by seneca 5y ago

> Replace "China" with "The USA" and "Eastern" with "Western" and the other way around and not much of meaning or value would be lost. This is nonsense, and basically textbook whataboutism. Companies in the US are not an extension of the state in anyway near the way Chinese firms are, even if some collude. The US allows dual citizenship.

babesh 5y ago
How do you think the US government gets access to Internet and phone traffic? The exchanges give the US government direct access including letting the government install their own equipment.
- adventured 5y ago
  The parent comment is quite obviously correct. The US Internet isn't just some large exchanges. It consists of many tens of thousands of services/companies/sites with private data exchanged over TLS. The US Government does not control those services/sites; in China it directly controls all of it, top to bottom and without exception. Does the US Government control GitHub? Imgur? Do they have monitors implanted at the organizations to control them? Do you know why there was so much anti-Trump content on services like Imgur, Reddit or Twitter, during those administration years? It's precisely because the US Government does not control such services, and fortunately it's an area of real freedom that the US still largely excels at. In the US I can set up a file/media hosting service tomorrow morning, with zero oversight by the US Government. I can make it a politically focused service for the left or right as I see fit. I can blast Biden 24/7 via the service, hosting media that is anti his administration, or focus that against Republicans instead. Or I can set up an encrypted data service, where you can post encrypted files, text notes, whatever. I can do that any time I see fit, the US Government has nothing to do with it. Try that in China and see what happens to you. Those are intentionally simple examples to make a point. You can do none of that in China, starting from step one of just setting up an open file hosting service that can take in almost any content you want it to (outside of things like CP). The US Government does not control the US Internet other than with some quite basic regulations. In China, the CCP now directly controls all relevant corporations, all Internet services, anything that matters whatsoever.
  - babesh 5y ago
    The US is a set of entrenched interests that are now working in concert with the government. The government doesn't have to do things directly. They just have the companies do it. Stop focusing on the government and look at how the whole system works. Post something critical of a government official and it gets censored. It happens on Facebook, Twitter, Yelp, Hacker News, Nextdoor, YouTube, etc... We aren't talking Trump or antivaxxers either.
- betterunix2 5y ago
  So what? The government of China also maintains a network of roads, just like the US. By narrowing your focus you can always find ways that the US is "just like China." Of course, right now, in the 21st century, the government of China is using its various powers to, among other things, send its citizens who members of a particular minority ethnic group to concentration camps. Criticize the US all you want, but the US government are not rounding people up, torturing them, and then forcing them to work in jobs the government picked out for them. The US does plenty of awful things, sometimes as part of its official policies, but it is still a far cry for the sort of things that the CCP is doing.
  - __m 5y ago
    Still sounds better than killing hundreds of thousands of them in the Middle East.
  - babesh 5y ago
    The US government did round people up, torture them, and put them in concentration camps. How do you think the WHOLE country was built? We living in this country benefited and are CONTINUING to benefit from it. Ever hear of the Indian reservation system? The US government rounded people up, took their land, and forced them into concentration camps. If they left the reservation, they were hunted by the US cavalry. It is so rich to conquer a people and then show remorse while continuing to occupy the land. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears How would you compare that part of American history to the Nazis? Or how about comparing that to the Japanese in WW2? Is the US really any better? Given how the US is allies with Saudi Arabia, has conducted wars killing over a million people the last 30 years, do you actually think the US changed its ways?
    - babesh 5y ago
      The US is an imperial power and there is a power struggle between it and China. There is no morality. There is mostly propaganda on both sides.
    - babesh 5y ago
twobitshifter 5y ago
Juniper networks is evidence that the us will backdoor things just the same as China.
- jollybean 5y ago
  It's not 'just the same as China' - that backdoors exist is true, but that's where the comparison ends. The US generally doesn't use espionage to steal trade secrets, it might happen now and again, but it's not a strategic policy. The US is also fairly open. TikTok is the #1 app in the US and it's literally Chinese owned! The US is selective about where it gets protectionist / nationalist. Even the populist chest-thumping is not a reflection of what's actually going. That's just for Twitter politics. For whatever reasons, China is very authoritarian/controlling and that has to be folded into the equation. Aside from complicated moral issues with Taiwan/Tibet/Uyghurs - really all of that protectionist stuff is 'their choice'. It's up to them how they want to play the game. We have to just accept that reality and collectively respond to it rationally. Dropping Huawei is a reasonable choice as is dropping any company known to be involved in shenanigans. Some data laws for where traffic can travel and under what terms would be reasonable as well (I'm looking at you Zoom!). We can get along but we need good boundaries.
beaunative 5y ago
It's never whataboutism to replace US with China. People often love the whataboutism argument, but logically it only applies when it's a digression of the original issue. A citizen applies for FOIA request shouldn't be answered 'see what China is doing'. In terms of global politics, comparing the major players is definitely valid.
markus_zhang 5y ago
Hint: In China officials control capitalists more or less, while in the US it's probably a different story. You guys really need to substitute "state" with "elites", then it's pretty much the same story globally. You have to learn to unlearn the trick that they feed you (OH the state is evil but private is good).
jacquesm 5y ago
You misunderstand the term 'whataboutism'. Besides being a shallow dismissal you should at least apply it properly. 'Turnabout is fair game' would be more applicable here. 'Even if some collude' -> those are the largest companies in the world, see 'Snowden'. Yes, the US allows for dual citizenship. And will then proceed to levy those with US citizenship the world over for taxes, no matter where they actually reside, a practice few other countries follow.
jonesnc 5y ago
> Companies in the US are not an extension of the state in anyway near the way Chinese firms are, even if some collude. In the US, the state is an extension of the corporation.

by seneca 5y ago

babesh 5y ago

How do you think the US government gets access to Internet and phone traffic? The exchanges give the US government direct access including letting the government install their own equipment.

adventured 5y ago
The parent comment is quite obviously correct. The US Internet isn't just some large exchanges. It consists of many tens of thousands of services/companies/sites with private data exchanged over TLS. The US Government does not control those services/sites; in China it directly controls all of it, top to bottom and without exception. Does the US Government control GitHub? Imgur? Do they have monitors implanted at the organizations to control them? Do you know why there was so much anti-Trump content on services like Imgur, Reddit or Twitter, during those administration years? It's precisely because the US Government does not control such services, and fortunately it's an area of real freedom that the US still largely excels at. In the US I can set up a file/media hosting service tomorrow morning, with zero oversight by the US Government. I can make it a politically focused service for the left or right as I see fit. I can blast Biden 24/7 via the service, hosting media that is anti his administration, or focus that against Republicans instead. Or I can set up an encrypted data service, where you can post encrypted files, text notes, whatever. I can do that any time I see fit, the US Government has nothing to do with it. Try that in China and see what happens to you. Those are intentionally simple examples to make a point. You can do none of that in China, starting from step one of just setting up an open file hosting service that can take in almost any content you want it to (outside of things like CP). The US Government does not control the US Internet other than with some quite basic regulations. In China, the CCP now directly controls all relevant corporations, all Internet services, anything that matters whatsoever.
- babesh 5y ago
  The US is a set of entrenched interests that are now working in concert with the government. The government doesn't have to do things directly. They just have the companies do it. Stop focusing on the government and look at how the whole system works. Post something critical of a government official and it gets censored. It happens on Facebook, Twitter, Yelp, Hacker News, Nextdoor, YouTube, etc... We aren't talking Trump or antivaxxers either.
betterunix2 5y ago
So what? The government of China also maintains a network of roads, just like the US. By narrowing your focus you can always find ways that the US is "just like China." Of course, right now, in the 21st century, the government of China is using its various powers to, among other things, send its citizens who members of a particular minority ethnic group to concentration camps. Criticize the US all you want, but the US government are not rounding people up, torturing them, and then forcing them to work in jobs the government picked out for them. The US does plenty of awful things, sometimes as part of its official policies, but it is still a far cry for the sort of things that the CCP is doing.
- __m 5y ago
  Still sounds better than killing hundreds of thousands of them in the Middle East.
- babesh 5y ago
  The US government did round people up, torture them, and put them in concentration camps. How do you think the WHOLE country was built? We living in this country benefited and are CONTINUING to benefit from it. Ever hear of the Indian reservation system? The US government rounded people up, took their land, and forced them into concentration camps. If they left the reservation, they were hunted by the US cavalry. It is so rich to conquer a people and then show remorse while continuing to occupy the land. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears How would you compare that part of American history to the Nazis? Or how about comparing that to the Japanese in WW2? Is the US really any better? Given how the US is allies with Saudi Arabia, has conducted wars killing over a million people the last 30 years, do you actually think the US changed its ways?
  - babesh 5y ago
    The US is an imperial power and there is a power struggle between it and China. There is no morality. There is mostly propaganda on both sides.
  - babesh 5y ago

twobitshifter 5y ago

Juniper networks is evidence that the us will backdoor things just the same as China.

jollybean 5y ago
It's not 'just the same as China' - that backdoors exist is true, but that's where the comparison ends. The US generally doesn't use espionage to steal trade secrets, it might happen now and again, but it's not a strategic policy. The US is also fairly open. TikTok is the #1 app in the US and it's literally Chinese owned! The US is selective about where it gets protectionist / nationalist. Even the populist chest-thumping is not a reflection of what's actually going. That's just for Twitter politics. For whatever reasons, China is very authoritarian/controlling and that has to be folded into the equation. Aside from complicated moral issues with Taiwan/Tibet/Uyghurs - really all of that protectionist stuff is 'their choice'. It's up to them how they want to play the game. We have to just accept that reality and collectively respond to it rationally. Dropping Huawei is a reasonable choice as is dropping any company known to be involved in shenanigans. Some data laws for where traffic can travel and under what terms would be reasonable as well (I'm looking at you Zoom!). We can get along but we need good boundaries.

beaunative 5y ago

It's never whataboutism to replace US with China. People often love the whataboutism argument, but logically it only applies when it's a digression of the original issue. A citizen applies for FOIA request shouldn't be answered 'see what China is doing'. In terms of global politics, comparing the major players is definitely valid.

markus_zhang 5y ago

Hint: In China officials control capitalists more or less, while in the US it's probably a different story. You guys really need to substitute "state" with "elites", then it's pretty much the same story globally. You have to learn to unlearn the trick that they feed you (OH the state is evil but private is good).

jacquesm 5y ago

You misunderstand the term 'whataboutism'. Besides being a shallow dismissal you should at least apply it properly. 'Turnabout is fair game' would be more applicable here. 'Even if some collude' -> those are the largest companies in the world, see 'Snowden'. Yes, the US allows for dual citizenship. And will then proceed to levy those with US citizenship the world over for taxes, no matter where they actually reside, a practice few other countries follow.

jonesnc 5y ago

> Companies in the US are not an extension of the state in anyway near the way Chinese firms are, even if some collude. In the US, the state is an extension of the corporation.