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Of course there exists plenty of evidence of American surveillance. But when the USA spies, it does so in the interests of the American state and in the shared

Of course there exists plenty of evidence of American surveillance. But when the USA spies, it does so in the interests of the American state and in the shared interests of the Five Eyes. When China spies it does so in the interest of China. For Americans, or citizens of the Five Eyes, there is at least some aligned interest with the state they inhabit and some political recourse available within it. Nothing like that exists for them with China.

dirtyid 5y ago
>citizens of the Five Eyes, there is at least some aligned interest The FVEY surveilliance sharing mechanism is designed explicitly to circumvent limits on domestic spying by domestic agencies. It is quite literally an institution designed to undermine the civilian interests of Five Eye countries. AU Prime Minsiter Turnbull literally admitted the reason why Huawei was banned from AU networks was because Huawei hardware made it harder to surveil on AU/FVEY citizens.
- dleslie 5y ago
  I am aware; being spied on by allies is still a world of difference than being spied on by China, or Russia, or Iran, or other adversarial nations. At the very least, citizens of Five Eyes nations can attempt to end it by contacting their representatives.
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
    How is it worse? I also don't have a lot of faith in representatives passing the same legislation you'd be trying to argue against, especially with the near-trillion dollar lobbying industry.
    - dleslie 5y ago
      Adversaries have malicious intent, or at least self-serving intent; our countries and their allies have a greater interest in preserving our well-being than malicious adversaries.
    - adventured 5y ago
      It's worse because I'm an American and China is a superpower competing rival to the US, not an ally. My interests accordingly are aligned with China not being able to hoover up all US data and intellectual property. The US and China are closer to being at war than they are to being allies in the sense that the US and Britain or Germany are allies. The US and Germany, for example, have a more tense relationship at present than, say, 30 or 40 years ago. And yet we'd still send a million soldiers over there to help defend them if Russia decided to march west again with their eyes on Berlin. That's because they're an ally. The same is true of many other nations, like Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea, Poland, and so on. I don't believe for a second anyone in this thread is actually confused in the way in which they're pretending to be confused, when it comes to whether one would prefer the US or China to be the top dog of espionage globally. It almost entirely depends on whether you're in the US or in a liberal democracy allied with the US or in China (or one of its few allies).

dirtyid 5y ago

>citizens of the Five Eyes, there is at least some aligned interest The FVEY surveilliance sharing mechanism is designed explicitly to circumvent limits on domestic spying by domestic agencies. It is quite literally an institution designed to undermine the civilian interests of Five Eye countries. AU Prime Minsiter Turnbull literally admitted the reason why Huawei was banned from AU networks was because Huawei hardware made it harder to surveil on AU/FVEY citizens.

dleslie 5y ago
I am aware; being spied on by allies is still a world of difference than being spied on by China, or Russia, or Iran, or other adversarial nations. At the very least, citizens of Five Eyes nations can attempt to end it by contacting their representatives.
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  How is it worse? I also don't have a lot of faith in representatives passing the same legislation you'd be trying to argue against, especially with the near-trillion dollar lobbying industry.
  - dleslie 5y ago
    Adversaries have malicious intent, or at least self-serving intent; our countries and their allies have a greater interest in preserving our well-being than malicious adversaries.
  - adventured 5y ago
    It's worse because I'm an American and China is a superpower competing rival to the US, not an ally. My interests accordingly are aligned with China not being able to hoover up all US data and intellectual property. The US and China are closer to being at war than they are to being allies in the sense that the US and Britain or Germany are allies. The US and Germany, for example, have a more tense relationship at present than, say, 30 or 40 years ago. And yet we'd still send a million soldiers over there to help defend them if Russia decided to march west again with their eyes on Berlin. That's because they're an ally. The same is true of many other nations, like Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea, Poland, and so on. I don't believe for a second anyone in this thread is actually confused in the way in which they're pretending to be confused, when it comes to whether one would prefer the US or China to be the top dog of espionage globally. It almost entirely depends on whether you're in the US or in a liberal democracy allied with the US or in China (or one of its few allies).