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Honestly, I don't know why this would be so surprising. You're comparing the flow of goods in a stable supply chain with the unprecedented demand for a novel va

Honestly, I don't know why this would be so surprising. You're comparing the flow of goods in a stable supply chain with the unprecedented demand for a novel vaccine for which no existing supply chain existed. Of course there wouldn't be a ready flow of vaccine immediately, and of course every country prioritizes its own citizens first and foremost. Now that demand has eased considerably, the US is now donating more doses of vaccine than all of the other countries on the planet combined.

adventured 5y ago
You're being downvoted because you're not allowed to point out on HN that the US is donating more vaccine doses than the rest of the world combined. Just like the US donates as much food to the rest of the world as all other nations combined and has been doing it for a century now. US bad.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  It certainly feels like there's a lot of unjustified pressure on this forum to portray the US as categorically worse than every other country. I have other controversial opinions which are at least met by understandable rebuttals, but this "America doesn't do everything horribly" seems to violate some sacred taboo (and I suspect particularly so with the European and progressive American cohorts). In whichever case, a few Internet Points is a small price to pay. :)
- pyrale 5y ago
  The reason is that whether the vaccine is donated or not isn't relevant with regards to exports numbers. Same trick as people proudly touting that US is the #1 philantropy country, ignoring that other countries actually run efficient mutualized welfare services.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Can you elaborate on why this isn’t relevant? What are other countries doing to offset their lack of donations? And can we put numbers around the amounts various countries are exporting and donating, respectively?
    - pyrale 5y ago
      Canada probably doesn't need donations, they can afford to buy vaccines. Answering based on donations is a way to sidetrack the relevant metric with regards to Canadian issues (the # and schedule of exported vaccine) and replace it with another metric on which the US usually has less competition. It doesn't mean the current vaccine donation program isn't a great thing, or that the US policy has been wrong. But it's annoying for people explaining a problem to see it reframed so that it shows feel-good results from the US pov. (as for the numbers, [1] shows about >400M doses exported for China as of July 9th and ~350M from Europe as of May 6th, while [2] claims the US donated 160M doses as of now.) [1]: https://dukeghic.org/2021/07/09/taking-a-closer-look-at-vaccine-exports/ https://dukeghic.org/2021/07/09/taking-a-closer-look-at-vacc... [2]: https://www.state.gov/covid-19-recovery/vaccine-deliveries/ https://www.state.gov/covid-19-recovery/vaccine-deliveries/
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
        > Answering based on donations is a way to sidetrack the relevant metric with regards to Canadian issues "Canadian issues" was never the topic at hand. We were all responding to this comment[0]: > The same issues apply to American control over European power supplies or Norwegian control over European power supplies. They aren't anymore dangerous for Europe. The main difference is our existing trade deals with the US are more embedded into the European economy than any of the other countries. We like the US now, they are our friends, but because they are more connected, we are more reliant on them than others, which is dangerous in and of itself. user smnrchrds made his "US shutting off the tap" as an example of the perils of being economically entrenched with the US, but I pointed out that this was a bad example because there was no actual "flow" of vaccine for the US to cut off in the first place. user TMWNN left the even better rebuttal[1] that the US wasn't even responsible for Canada's vaccine shortage--the US never restricted vaccine flow to Canada, but rather the Canadians failed to diversify their vaccine order until after their original vaccine deal fell through, and by the time they placed orders with US suppliers, those suppliers had long since made other commitments. Moreover, you were the one who brought up the US philanthropic narrative--I mentioned donations in that context. > But it's annoying for people explaining a problem to see it reframed so that it shows feel-good results from the US pov. I'm sure it's very annoying when you're trying to pile-on another country and some buzzkill ruins the fun by setting the record straight. :) However, per the previous paragraph, the "problem" is that the Canadian government failed to make appropriate provisions. The US vaccine rollout actually appears to be even more of an unmitigated success story than I originally understood, and I'm (not really) sorry if that offends. > as for the numbers, [1] shows about >400M doses exported for China as of July 9th and ~350M from Europe as of May 6th, while [2] claims the US donated 160M doses as of now You're comparing all exports for China and Europe with donations from the US. When the US uses its economy to do good, everyone piles on about how evil it is that corporations are charging for something. When the US government gives away hundreds of millions of dollars worth of life saving vaccine, you pile on about how it should be selling that vaccine and that "giving vaccines away" is cheating. There's no way to win. I've got to say, anti-Americanism is a really strange thing for me, as an American. I understand having criticism for the American government or various elements of American culture--I certainly have these criticisms myself, but I work hard to do what little I can to improve my country. I want America to be a force for good in the world. But I don't understand the impulse to interpret every event solely through the lens of "how can this be distorted to make America look bad?". When I see another country that's struggling, I feel compassion for them. I want their country to improve. But most of the time when people see the US struggling, they seem to feel smugness and schadenfreude, and when the US isn't struggling it angers and annoys them. And it's not just Europeans and Canadians, but also progressive Americans. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28671688 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28671688 [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28677797 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28677797
smnrchrds 5y ago
The problem was, when vaccines were in short supply, the US decided to prioritize all Americans, including healthy 16 year olds, over other countries' most vulnerable and elderly population. In early 2021, if N vaccine doses going to another country who would have saved 1000 lives because they were still vaccinating the most vulnerable, the same N doses used in the US would have saved 1, because the most vulnerable were already vaccinated and the vaccines were being used for younger not-at-risk population. Why should any country not criticize the US for prioritizing one American life over 1,000 non-American lives? This compares to the EU which allowed vaccine exports. Thousands of Canadians are alive today that wouldn't have been if the EU acted like the US.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Admittedly the United States' rollout wasn't optimally efficient, and they prioritized American lives early on (before we knew exactly how mass vaccination would play out, mind you--much of your criticism benefits from hindsight). But it's unfair to criticize the US for prioritizing American lives over foreign lives when it's doing far more than all other countries combined to minimize the loss of foreign lives. I could spin that into a divisive shot at Canada or the EU as you've done with America (and I think I could make a much more compelling case), but I don't see the point in being divisive when we have nothing to gain and everything to lose from it. Yes, the early days of COVID vaccination were predictably rocky. What's the excuse today for not working together to vaccinate the world?

adventured 5y ago

You're being downvoted because you're not allowed to point out on HN that the US is donating more vaccine doses than the rest of the world combined. Just like the US donates as much food to the rest of the world as all other nations combined and has been doing it for a century now. US bad.

throwaway894345 5y ago
It certainly feels like there's a lot of unjustified pressure on this forum to portray the US as categorically worse than every other country. I have other controversial opinions which are at least met by understandable rebuttals, but this "America doesn't do everything horribly" seems to violate some sacred taboo (and I suspect particularly so with the European and progressive American cohorts). In whichever case, a few Internet Points is a small price to pay. :)
pyrale 5y ago
The reason is that whether the vaccine is donated or not isn't relevant with regards to exports numbers. Same trick as people proudly touting that US is the #1 philantropy country, ignoring that other countries actually run efficient mutualized welfare services.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Can you elaborate on why this isn’t relevant? What are other countries doing to offset their lack of donations? And can we put numbers around the amounts various countries are exporting and donating, respectively?
  - pyrale 5y ago
    Canada probably doesn't need donations, they can afford to buy vaccines. Answering based on donations is a way to sidetrack the relevant metric with regards to Canadian issues (the # and schedule of exported vaccine) and replace it with another metric on which the US usually has less competition. It doesn't mean the current vaccine donation program isn't a great thing, or that the US policy has been wrong. But it's annoying for people explaining a problem to see it reframed so that it shows feel-good results from the US pov. (as for the numbers, [1] shows about >400M doses exported for China as of July 9th and ~350M from Europe as of May 6th, while [2] claims the US donated 160M doses as of now.) [1]: https://dukeghic.org/2021/07/09/taking-a-closer-look-at-vaccine-exports/ https://dukeghic.org/2021/07/09/taking-a-closer-look-at-vacc... [2]: https://www.state.gov/covid-19-recovery/vaccine-deliveries/ https://www.state.gov/covid-19-recovery/vaccine-deliveries/
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      > Answering based on donations is a way to sidetrack the relevant metric with regards to Canadian issues "Canadian issues" was never the topic at hand. We were all responding to this comment[0]: > The same issues apply to American control over European power supplies or Norwegian control over European power supplies. They aren't anymore dangerous for Europe. The main difference is our existing trade deals with the US are more embedded into the European economy than any of the other countries. We like the US now, they are our friends, but because they are more connected, we are more reliant on them than others, which is dangerous in and of itself. user smnrchrds made his "US shutting off the tap" as an example of the perils of being economically entrenched with the US, but I pointed out that this was a bad example because there was no actual "flow" of vaccine for the US to cut off in the first place. user TMWNN left the even better rebuttal[1] that the US wasn't even responsible for Canada's vaccine shortage--the US never restricted vaccine flow to Canada, but rather the Canadians failed to diversify their vaccine order until after their original vaccine deal fell through, and by the time they placed orders with US suppliers, those suppliers had long since made other commitments. Moreover, you were the one who brought up the US philanthropic narrative--I mentioned donations in that context. > But it's annoying for people explaining a problem to see it reframed so that it shows feel-good results from the US pov. I'm sure it's very annoying when you're trying to pile-on another country and some buzzkill ruins the fun by setting the record straight. :) However, per the previous paragraph, the "problem" is that the Canadian government failed to make appropriate provisions. The US vaccine rollout actually appears to be even more of an unmitigated success story than I originally understood, and I'm (not really) sorry if that offends. > as for the numbers, [1] shows about >400M doses exported for China as of July 9th and ~350M from Europe as of May 6th, while [2] claims the US donated 160M doses as of now You're comparing all exports for China and Europe with donations from the US. When the US uses its economy to do good, everyone piles on about how evil it is that corporations are charging for something. When the US government gives away hundreds of millions of dollars worth of life saving vaccine, you pile on about how it should be selling that vaccine and that "giving vaccines away" is cheating. There's no way to win. I've got to say, anti-Americanism is a really strange thing for me, as an American. I understand having criticism for the American government or various elements of American culture--I certainly have these criticisms myself, but I work hard to do what little I can to improve my country. I want America to be a force for good in the world. But I don't understand the impulse to interpret every event solely through the lens of "how can this be distorted to make America look bad?". When I see another country that's struggling, I feel compassion for them. I want their country to improve. But most of the time when people see the US struggling, they seem to feel smugness and schadenfreude, and when the US isn't struggling it angers and annoys them. And it's not just Europeans and Canadians, but also progressive Americans. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28671688 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28671688 [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28677797 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28677797

smnrchrds 5y ago

The problem was, when vaccines were in short supply, the US decided to prioritize all Americans, including healthy 16 year olds, over other countries' most vulnerable and elderly population. In early 2021, if N vaccine doses going to another country who would have saved 1000 lives because they were still vaccinating the most vulnerable, the same N doses used in the US would have saved 1, because the most vulnerable were already vaccinated and the vaccines were being used for younger not-at-risk population. Why should any country not criticize the US for prioritizing one American life over 1,000 non-American lives? This compares to the EU which allowed vaccine exports. Thousands of Canadians are alive today that wouldn't have been if the EU acted like the US.

throwaway894345 5y ago
Admittedly the United States' rollout wasn't optimally efficient, and they prioritized American lives early on (before we knew exactly how mass vaccination would play out, mind you--much of your criticism benefits from hindsight). But it's unfair to criticize the US for prioritizing American lives over foreign lives when it's doing far more than all other countries combined to minimize the loss of foreign lives. I could spin that into a divisive shot at Canada or the EU as you've done with America (and I think I could make a much more compelling case), but I don't see the point in being divisive when we have nothing to gain and everything to lose from it. Yes, the early days of COVID vaccination were predictably rocky. What's the excuse today for not working together to vaccinate the world?