5 ms·

Who are the countries which haven’t invaded other countries? As sordid as the Iraq war was, it seems strictly better to to topple an oppressive dictator than to

Who are the countries which haven’t invaded other countries? As sordid as the Iraq war was, it seems strictly better to to topple an oppressive dictator than to go around annexing territories (or assassinating dissidents in EU countries, or installing dictators in foreign countries, or meddling in foreign elections, or jailing rival politicians in your own country, or so on). I think comparing countries’ sins is pretty fruitless in general, but I hope we can agree that whatever criticism you may have for the US, Putin’s Russia is on another level.

raxxorrax 5y ago
The Russians could make the same argument of the US meddling in Ukraine, before Crimea happened. Nato denies it, but from their perspective it can make sense. Perhaps they only perceived it that way when the US got involved in the Maidan protests. That said, wrong perception is sometimes an excuse.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  What kind of meddling did the US do that is on the same level as a full-scale invasion? Moreover, while it’s flat-out ridiculous to argue that the US and Russia are in the same ballpark in terms of harm to Europe (or anyone else), we don’t need to fixate on this comparison as though there is a dichotomy.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    You don't have to compare the steps they took, you have to think about what the US would do if Russia gets involved in elections in Mexico or Canada.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      Why? The US doesn't get involved in European elections (so your hypothetical doesn't even make sense), but that's besides the point. What does the US have to do with whether or not Europe gets its energy from Russia? Europe doesn't have to choose to put its energy supply in the hands of Russia or US, there are other suppliers and diversification is a really good alternative.
      - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
        They don't need to, because they have the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantik-Br%C3%BCcke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantik-Br%C3%BCcke and other similary undemocratic institutions influencing the shit out of anything via side-channel attacks.
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        I skimmed your link, but I didn't see anything damning or undemocratic. Where are the Lukashenko-esque dictators that the US installed in Europe? Which dissidents have the US assassinated on EU soil?
        LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
        Are you dumb, or what? I've written they don't need to because they have other means, which at the end of the day amounts to 'the same shit, but different' for the influenced vasall states.
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        You wrote: > They don't need to, because they have the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantik-Br%C3%BCcke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantik-Br%C3%BCcke and other similary undemocratic institutions influencing the shit out of anything via side-channel attacks. Which clearly says that the US has "undemocratic institutions" influencing Europe, but the link doesn't support the idea that the A-B is antidemocratic (there's nothing inherently "antidemocratic" about fostering international partnership and cooperation).
        LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
        Look...I may be naive, but if you have institutions which push policies, empower candidates beyond the scenes, via whichever circles, then this is undemocratic, or otherwise called 'framing', 'setting the goal posts' to 'game' the rules into your favour. Or cheating, or fraud, or whatever. Which means candidates prepared that way, and then presented as the only option(s) to give the deceived masses the illusion of choice is simply a lie. edit: Of course this is not exclusive to the US, let's just say they lead the market of political BS, k?
    - scythe 5y ago
      Why go as far as Mexico? Russia has influenced, and continues to influence, elections in the United States.
- sergeykish 5y ago
  Show me US invasion forces in Ukraine. Democracy support is not meddling. RF has done a lot of harm to Ukraine even before 2014. Euromaidan was a response against RF puppet Yanukovych. RF has used gas prices to influence election results. Leonid Kuchma who has built oligarchy regime elected with the help of Kremlin. His opponent, Viacheslav Chornovil, was killed. It is mafia. And in RF mafia has got its own state.
teekert 5y ago
Just read this book [0], sure the Chinese are doing it too now, they read the book, the EU as well probably. I think it would be good to have good relations with Russia, "where goods cross borders, armies do not." There are probably a lot of nice people living in Russia, and I bet they love their children too. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit...
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  We had a far better relation to Russia in the early 21st century and a lot of stability with that. Somehow that got blown up without any discernible reason from my perspective.
  - yurish 5y ago
    The reasons are quite obvious I think. Expansion of NATO to the east and western supported color revolutions/arabian springs after which those who rule Russia started to understand that it is not enough to possess nukes and be safe because you can be overthrown from inside.
anticodon 5y ago
As sordid as the Iraq war was, it seems strictly better to to topple an oppressive dictator I think that 600,000 Iraqis killed in that war (lower bound) would have different opinion. Besides, does population of Iraq live better now? I seriously doubt that.
- LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
  [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Kuwait https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Kuwait Can't have that, bringing some Sheiks with a very special relationship to the U.S.A. back into to empire, tsk, tsk! Building case for chase supported by fake [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony Slapping of hands follows: [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War Dust settles(mostly) until: [4] http://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,998512,00.html http://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,9985... Uh Oh! Grave error! Threatening the [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar That means terror! Have to be clever here, let's see and play some curve ball out of nowhere: [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curveball_(informant) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curveball_(informant) The rest is history, as they say. And they have the gall to call Russia a gas station with nukes run by mafia. Yah, sure, whatever... YOU ASS AYE! YOU ASS AYE! YOU ASS AYE!

raxxorrax 5y ago

The Russians could make the same argument of the US meddling in Ukraine, before Crimea happened. Nato denies it, but from their perspective it can make sense. Perhaps they only perceived it that way when the US got involved in the Maidan protests. That said, wrong perception is sometimes an excuse.

throwaway894345 5y ago
What kind of meddling did the US do that is on the same level as a full-scale invasion? Moreover, while it’s flat-out ridiculous to argue that the US and Russia are in the same ballpark in terms of harm to Europe (or anyone else), we don’t need to fixate on this comparison as though there is a dichotomy.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  You don't have to compare the steps they took, you have to think about what the US would do if Russia gets involved in elections in Mexico or Canada.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Why? The US doesn't get involved in European elections (so your hypothetical doesn't even make sense), but that's besides the point. What does the US have to do with whether or not Europe gets its energy from Russia? Europe doesn't have to choose to put its energy supply in the hands of Russia or US, there are other suppliers and diversification is a really good alternative.
    - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
      They don't need to, because they have the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantik-Br%C3%BCcke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantik-Br%C3%BCcke and other similary undemocratic institutions influencing the shit out of anything via side-channel attacks.
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
        I skimmed your link, but I didn't see anything damning or undemocratic. Where are the Lukashenko-esque dictators that the US installed in Europe? Which dissidents have the US assassinated on EU soil?
        LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
        Are you dumb, or what? I've written they don't need to because they have other means, which at the end of the day amounts to 'the same shit, but different' for the influenced vasall states.
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        You wrote: > They don't need to, because they have the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantik-Br%C3%BCcke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantik-Br%C3%BCcke and other similary undemocratic institutions influencing the shit out of anything via side-channel attacks. Which clearly says that the US has "undemocratic institutions" influencing Europe, but the link doesn't support the idea that the A-B is antidemocratic (there's nothing inherently "antidemocratic" about fostering international partnership and cooperation).
        LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
        Look...I may be naive, but if you have institutions which push policies, empower candidates beyond the scenes, via whichever circles, then this is undemocratic, or otherwise called 'framing', 'setting the goal posts' to 'game' the rules into your favour. Or cheating, or fraud, or whatever. Which means candidates prepared that way, and then presented as the only option(s) to give the deceived masses the illusion of choice is simply a lie. edit: Of course this is not exclusive to the US, let's just say they lead the market of political BS, k?
  - scythe 5y ago
    Why go as far as Mexico? Russia has influenced, and continues to influence, elections in the United States.
sergeykish 5y ago
Show me US invasion forces in Ukraine. Democracy support is not meddling. RF has done a lot of harm to Ukraine even before 2014. Euromaidan was a response against RF puppet Yanukovych. RF has used gas prices to influence election results. Leonid Kuchma who has built oligarchy regime elected with the help of Kremlin. His opponent, Viacheslav Chornovil, was killed. It is mafia. And in RF mafia has got its own state.

teekert 5y ago

Just read this book [0], sure the Chinese are doing it too now, they read the book, the EU as well probably. I think it would be good to have good relations with Russia, "where goods cross borders, armies do not." There are probably a lot of nice people living in Russia, and I bet they love their children too. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit...

raxxorrax 5y ago
We had a far better relation to Russia in the early 21st century and a lot of stability with that. Somehow that got blown up without any discernible reason from my perspective.
- yurish 5y ago
  The reasons are quite obvious I think. Expansion of NATO to the east and western supported color revolutions/arabian springs after which those who rule Russia started to understand that it is not enough to possess nukes and be safe because you can be overthrown from inside.

anticodon 5y ago

As sordid as the Iraq war was, it seems strictly better to to topple an oppressive dictator I think that 600,000 Iraqis killed in that war (lower bound) would have different opinion. Besides, does population of Iraq live better now? I seriously doubt that.

LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Kuwait https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Kuwait Can't have that, bringing some Sheiks with a very special relationship to the U.S.A. back into to empire, tsk, tsk! Building case for chase supported by fake [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony Slapping of hands follows: [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War Dust settles(mostly) until: [4] http://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,998512,00.html http://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,9985... Uh Oh! Grave error! Threatening the [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar That means terror! Have to be clever here, let's see and play some curve ball out of nowhere: [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curveball_(informant) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curveball_(informant) The rest is history, as they say. And they have the gall to call Russia a gas station with nukes run by mafia. Yah, sure, whatever... YOU ASS AYE! YOU ASS AYE! YOU ASS AYE!