4 ms·

Before defining technicalities, which are of course even more complicated, we should ask ourselves if we want to work this way. It would get a clear 'no' from m

Before defining technicalities, which are of course even more complicated, we should ask ourselves if we want to work this way. It would get a clear 'no' from me. Also the worker doesn't profit in any way if he works faster. Sure, there is very like some form of bonus, but in the end throughput doesn't matter to him. So why the haste?

jasode 5y ago
>Also the worker doesn't profit in any way if he works faster. [...] So why the haste? Yes, it's true that they're not paid piecemeal per box so working "faster" seems pointless but some workers still hustle because they want to keep their jobs. A worker having a defiant attitude of "I don't get paid to work any faster" is fine -- up until the point they are replaced by another worker who is faster -- which means they're unemployed and make $0.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Why am I not allowed to fire that worker that refuses to suck my dick?
  - jjk166 5y ago
    If you can fire a person for refusing to suck your dick, that means sucking your dick is a job requirement, which means you are paying someone to perform sexual acts, which is prostitution, which is illegal.
  - dang 5y ago
    Please don't do this here.
spywaregorilla 5y ago
Your wording to me implies you assume the bonus is trivial. The whole point of incentive structures is to make the desires of the business match the rewards of the employee. > It would get a clear 'no' from me Seems kind of entitled to assume this view generalizes. Sure, I too have a cushy job and would prefer more time / less stress instead of more money. But that's a privileged place to be. It's a view derived from circumstances, not wisdom, even if a lack of wisdom may permit you to fail to realize this.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  > But that's a privileged place to be. All too true but I think sharing is caring. I am aware of what a worker needs to achieve to be competitive in a first world nation. This has nothing to do with that, on the contrary, it just worsens working conditions for no discernible reason and surveillance software is unproductive baggage, but most importantly you imply that this productivity tuning would exempt the wage of workers being subject to market forces, which is quite a huge assumption and unproven I would say. The success of Amazon certainly didn't rely on that.
- kahrl 5y ago
  Yes, I'm sure the sweat shop workers enjoy working in a sweat shop. We're privileged, so who even knows if the poors know about holidays. Best to leave them to their hellhole.
  - spywaregorilla 5y ago
    The working conditions of the poor and their low wages aren't especially relevant as to general idea of aligning compensation incentives to outcomes. It's fully possible to believe working conditions should be improved, base pay should be improved, AND that incentives for performance are reasonable.
  - jjk166 5y ago
    If they chose to work in the sweat shop and are free to quit at any time but choose not to, then they probably do enjoy working in the sweat shop, or at least prefer it to the other options they have reasonable access to. Without understanding the nuances of their current situation, it is impossible to say what changes will actually improve the situation, and it is easily possible that well intentioned changes can make things substantially worse.
    - FormerBandmate 5y ago
      They said the exact same things about Triangle Shirtwaist era factory workers and their lives demonstrably improved massively after unionization
kodah 5y ago
> Before defining technicalities, which are of course even more complicated, we should ask ourselves if we want to work this way. It would get a clear 'no' from me Oh, we don't already? There's a graph on my companies VCS that displays my own velocity, along with a subgraph that differentiates reviews, code writing, etc... Velocity is literally the speed at which we move items through the queue. We were the guinea pigs, they just took the illusion of choice (priority) away from Amazonians.
- consp 5y ago
  > Velocity is literally the speed at which we move items through the queue. Like adding lines of useless code when measured by the LOC you will surely start to add useless items to the queue if you have any control over that?
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  Velocity for knowledge work is probably a lot more difficult to measure, but also more.. real? Like the difference in capabilities of devs is likely to be much more varied than the varaiation among warehouse workers.

jasode 5y ago

>Also the worker doesn't profit in any way if he works faster. [...] So why the haste? Yes, it's true that they're not paid piecemeal per box so working "faster" seems pointless but some workers still hustle because they want to keep their jobs. A worker having a defiant attitude of "I don't get paid to work any faster" is fine -- up until the point they are replaced by another worker who is faster -- which means they're unemployed and make $0.

raxxorrax 5y ago
Why am I not allowed to fire that worker that refuses to suck my dick?
- jjk166 5y ago
  If you can fire a person for refusing to suck your dick, that means sucking your dick is a job requirement, which means you are paying someone to perform sexual acts, which is prostitution, which is illegal.
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't do this here.

spywaregorilla 5y ago

Your wording to me implies you assume the bonus is trivial. The whole point of incentive structures is to make the desires of the business match the rewards of the employee. > It would get a clear 'no' from me Seems kind of entitled to assume this view generalizes. Sure, I too have a cushy job and would prefer more time / less stress instead of more money. But that's a privileged place to be. It's a view derived from circumstances, not wisdom, even if a lack of wisdom may permit you to fail to realize this.

raxxorrax 5y ago
> But that's a privileged place to be. All too true but I think sharing is caring. I am aware of what a worker needs to achieve to be competitive in a first world nation. This has nothing to do with that, on the contrary, it just worsens working conditions for no discernible reason and surveillance software is unproductive baggage, but most importantly you imply that this productivity tuning would exempt the wage of workers being subject to market forces, which is quite a huge assumption and unproven I would say. The success of Amazon certainly didn't rely on that.
kahrl 5y ago
Yes, I'm sure the sweat shop workers enjoy working in a sweat shop. We're privileged, so who even knows if the poors know about holidays. Best to leave them to their hellhole.
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  The working conditions of the poor and their low wages aren't especially relevant as to general idea of aligning compensation incentives to outcomes. It's fully possible to believe working conditions should be improved, base pay should be improved, AND that incentives for performance are reasonable.
- jjk166 5y ago
  If they chose to work in the sweat shop and are free to quit at any time but choose not to, then they probably do enjoy working in the sweat shop, or at least prefer it to the other options they have reasonable access to. Without understanding the nuances of their current situation, it is impossible to say what changes will actually improve the situation, and it is easily possible that well intentioned changes can make things substantially worse.
  - FormerBandmate 5y ago
    They said the exact same things about Triangle Shirtwaist era factory workers and their lives demonstrably improved massively after unionization

kodah 5y ago

> Before defining technicalities, which are of course even more complicated, we should ask ourselves if we want to work this way. It would get a clear 'no' from me Oh, we don't already? There's a graph on my companies VCS that displays my own velocity, along with a subgraph that differentiates reviews, code writing, etc... Velocity is literally the speed at which we move items through the queue. We were the guinea pigs, they just took the illusion of choice (priority) away from Amazonians.

consp 5y ago
> Velocity is literally the speed at which we move items through the queue. Like adding lines of useless code when measured by the LOC you will surely start to add useless items to the queue if you have any control over that?
spywaregorilla 5y ago
Velocity for knowledge work is probably a lot more difficult to measure, but also more.. real? Like the difference in capabilities of devs is likely to be much more varied than the varaiation among warehouse workers.