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The Mom Test – How to talk to customers

469 points by jack335 5y ago

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iddan 5y ago
The mom test is the product validation book I get the most recommendations about. This is a lovely summary of it
- jack335 5y ago
  Yes me too. It was recommend so often that I thought creating a summary is a good idea ;-)
mlang23 5y ago
Although not quite the same, this reminds me of a very simple trick many blind people are taught during training on how to navigate the city: Never ever ask "Is this line 4" if you want to know which tram just arrived. Ask "which line is this?" Simply because the first version will make many people answer "yeah yeah" without even looking. The second version forces them to actually answer your question with something other then yes/no.
- beebeepka 5y ago
  Requiring a little effort makes quite a difference. Case in point: https://youtube.com/watch?v=n3AGpvV7KLI https://youtube.com/watch?v=n3AGpvV7KLI
- jack335 5y ago
  Oh wow sounds terrible to lie to a blind person but makes totally sense.
  - WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
    It’s not much a lie, it’s more of a way to quickly get someone to sod off. Still a shitty move.
  - Deestan 5y ago
    It's also misunderstanding the question, either due to being stuck in thought of due to ambient noise. Absent-mindedly understanding the question as "is this the train?" or something would not surprise me. A lot of people are also too afraid to say they don't understand or hear you, and will just go "yeah yeah". It's aggravating, but it's both real and no real ill intent behind it.
- WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
  Also if there is no PA on public transport vehicles that announces which line it is as it’s approaching the stop, and it’s a city, not a small town or village, it’s quite a shitty city to be living in. Consider moving elsewhere. If they can’t get their accessibility shit right, no way they’re going to have working snow plows in winter. Also the underground canals are gonna be so clogged that a mildly heavy rain will create fucking lakes and rivers on the streets.
  - mlang23 5y ago
    I get your attitude, but I can't confirm. For one, I am not sure if you actually realize how much work it is to learn to navigate your environment blind in a city. Even if there is no PA, asking is a million times simpler then moving to another city, because, you know, if you move, you have to start all over again and will need at least a year until you can somewhat move freely in that new city again. Also, where I come from we are pretty used to snow. Its not quite far up north, but our snow plowing infrastructure works, and flooding isn't a common event either. So yeah, in general, I am on your side, I'd love to have a PA. But the truth is, in the two most largest cities in my country, there is none, so I have to resort to either knowing which line arrives where, or simply ask someone. I've gotten used to that. Also, I have a certain feeling that involving random strangers in accessibility issues is actually doing something for the society. It forces people to deal with the issues disabled people have.
- jiggawatts 5y ago
  This is a rule I heard for dealing with coworkers from some other backgrounds as well. In some cultures, the established norm is for junior staff to answer all boolean questions in the affirmative. As in: "Have you completed the task?" "Yes!" -- no matter what If instead you ask for a project completion sign-off document, you're forcing them to provide the answer you were actually looking for.
  - moffkalast 5y ago
    Always ask string return questions, got it.
    - bronzecarnage 5y ago
      "Yes!"
  - nsv 5y ago
    I've always found "what's your progress on X?" or "how much have you gotten done on X?" to be better questions than "are you done with X?".
- alistairSH 5y ago
  Also applies to buying used cars and other high value things. Has it been regularly serviced? Vs Where do you take it for service? What date was it’s last major service?
- astrobe_ 5y ago
  Can confirm from around 10 years of customer support experience. Never ask close-ended question (yes/no), but open-ended ones. That is "what is the color of the motherboard" instead of "is the motherboard blue?". As you and others pointed at out, this is a very general principle. It comes from the fact that close-ended questions sort of puts words in someone's mouth (the trick is sometimes used when you want a poll to yield a specific result).
rmnclmnt 5y ago
Nice read thanks! In the same vein of gathering good data and finding the resonating solution to customers problems, Small Data[1] by Martin Lindstrom is another great read with a sociological approach, focused on branding but nonetheless on entrepreneurship also. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Data https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Data
- jack335 5y ago
  Looks really interesting! Added it to my list, thanks :-)
bpodgursky 5y ago
The Mom Test, the entire book, is a couple hour read... honestly if you have any interest at all in selling or building (or simply work at a startup) it's worth reading the whole thing, and not a summarized recap... the book itself is summarized.
- jack335 5y ago
  You're completely right thats what I say as well. If you're interested in this topic, read it it is barely 140 pages long. But I think a summary can be a good intro and a good learning for me as well :-)
macando 5y ago
Best book on early stage startups period. And it's barely 100 pages long. My favorite quote from it: “Someone should definitely make an X!” “Have you looked for an X?” “No, why?” “There are like 10 different kinds of X.” “Well I didn't really need it anyway.” Long story short, that person is a complainer, not a customer. They’re stuck in the la-la-land of imagining they’re the sort of person who finds clever ways to solve the petty annoyances of their day.
- jack335 5y ago
  Exactly! I think it is q bit over 100 pages (140) but still really short. It was recommended so many times to me so I really wanted to make a short summary. The thing with separating complainers from customer is a great learning as well. If you just see complainers maybe the problem isn't that important ;)
  - macando 5y ago
    Correct. It's 136p long. I remember it as no more than 85p. It's that good. > If you just see complainers maybe the problem isn't that important ;) Good point.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  I had a conversation in the 90s with an acquaintance: A: What the world really needs is a native Java compiler. That would be really great! You should write one. W: I wrote one for Symantec. You can buy it today. A: I don't want it.
  - Torwald 5y ago
    He just wanted to be nice.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      I wasn't angry with him, or even annoyed. I simply learned long ago that people who don't have skin in the game rarely give good game advice. People pitch me all the time what programs I should write. I've written many products over the years, some were successes, others were failures. A common thread has emerged: all the failures were pitched by others. All the successes were ones I wrote to please myself, and everyone told me I was a unique snowflake and nobody else would want it and I would fail.
hbeckpdx 5y ago
Naming something "The Mom Test" in the current political environment is a choice.
- khazhoux 5y ago
  Is "is a choice" something the kids are saying these days? Never heard that expression. At any rate, at first I was worried that this was a sexist-agist reference, but in fact it's not at all. "Mom" is just used to represent someone who doesn't want to hurt your feelings.
  - glenngillen 5y ago
    Yep. I thought the same thing originally, and then realized it's nothing of the sort. That I so quickly jumped to that assumption says more about me than the author :(
  - jack335 5y ago
    Exactly in this case "Mom" just refers to a person who doesn't want to hurt your feelings and just tells you that every idea is awesome ;)
  - klipt 5y ago
    The idea that mom (but not dad?) will lie to you in order not to hurt your feelings surely reflects biases about gender (aka sexism, albeit a mild form). The non biased version would use "parent" not "mom".
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- maxwellburson 5y ago
  Why?
  - michaelt 5y ago
    The risk hbeckpdx fears is: 1. Someone hasn't read the book and only glanced at the title. 2. That someone assumes the book says "test things on your mom, because there's nobody less tech-savvy than an older woman, yo momma so dumb she thinks a hamburger menu is something you get at McDonalds" 3. That someone, hoping to be an ally in the fight against gender and age discrimination in tech, takes offence at what they imagine the book says. 4. A mob of people who also haven't read the book destroy your career. Of course, we've got like 4 levels of hypothetical here - you're reading me, putting words into hbeckpdx's mouth, who is imagining an easily offended third party, who is imagining the contents of the book, which they imagine is offensive to a hypothetical mom. Whether you agree with hbeckpdx that this is a reasonable thing to fear is another question....
sseppola 5y ago
Talking to Humans is another great book in this genre. Short and succinct, with useful examples.
- jack335 5y ago
  Cool thanks will definitely take a look +1
mpbeauj 5y ago
From my experience, talking to customers in this weird screening, problem focused way is always very awkward - but then again, I've never found a real problem for people to solve so maybe it's just my ideas and the test worked.
robfitz 5y ago
Heya, author here. Fun to see this. I wrote the book after becoming hugely frustrated as an introverted technical founder trying to "talk to customers" but finding zero books about sales/interviews/etc that spoke to my context. That first company (yc s07) failed just as I started to figure it all out, but the casual approach proved useful (and comfortable) in my future businesses, so I wanted to document it for other folks like me. If it's helpful for anyone, I've been answering reader questions with little youtube videos that touch on some of the common misunderstanding and sticking points.[1] Also, back when covid started, I also did a short series (5x 5min videos) about adapting the approach to remote interviews.[2] [1] Q&A: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvHabB7atz2uWPZN5m7z3-8czZ_Q-TYoh https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvHabB7atz2uWPZN5m7z3... [2] Remote: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvHabB7atz2tOjQs1OMzjaDPziat0aVry https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvHabB7atz2tOjQs1OMzj...
- jack335 5y ago
  I think you really hit a frustration of many people :D Thanks for the book and your work Rob!
- tmarice 5y ago
  Looking forward to reading the book, looks great. Just a small technical issue: I just tried to buy the book on http://momtestbook.com/ http://momtestbook.com/ via Gumroad, and Chrome refuses to autofill the credit card number in the Gumroad widget because the site is http-only. I circumvented that by copying the link from the "Buy on Gumroad" button, but it might be hurting your sales. Consider adding SSL certificate or just make the button click open the Gumroad site.
  - robfitz 5y ago
    You're totally right — it's one of those things that's always on the list but never feels like the day's top priority, and then one day you wake up and it's on HN and you feel like a dummy ;). Probably some sort of lesson for me to learn here. (If anyone else needs it, the direct/secure gumroad PDF link is https://gum.co/momtest https://gum.co/momtest, and the paperback/ebook are on Amazon.)
revorad 5y ago
Rob's book is fantastic. I remember reading a very early version when it first came out. I'm very pleased to see that it has steadily become more popular over the years. Another great new book on the same topic is Deploy Empathy by Michele Hansen. Michele goes even deeper with lots of practical tips, scripts, and templates. I highly recommend it, especially if you liked The Mom Test - https://deployempathy.com https://deployempathy.com.
- jack335 5y ago
  Cool will definitely add it to my list. Thanks!
lbriner 5y ago
There have been a handful of books like this that I think are so key and probably not very contraversial but then I see so many companies who fail because they don't approach things in this way - perhaps they don't know about the book, perhaps they think they know better etc. It would be great imho to replace the venerable but probably overpriced and ineffective MBA with a modern equivalent that takes on board the sort of training and experience you would get from places like YC, some of the well known investors etc. so that we would end up with something that we could say, "if you want to start a business, you really need to go on this course". It could be distance/part-time/whatever but it would ensure that business people have the correct skills and tools for the job so that they give themselves the biggest chance of success.
muzani 5y ago
The mom test is one of those books that have a lot of good advice. Most summaries are quite bad and led me to think the book itself was bad, but thankfully, this is a good one.
- jack335 5y ago
  Thank you for that! I really recommend reading the whole thing but I think a summary is really good to have as well. Rob did an awesome job here :)
tyroh 5y ago
I've actually added The Mom Test to my recommended reading list for direct reports, since it helps a lot in requirements gathers from both internal and external customers.
- jack335 5y ago
  That is a cool idea! How is the feedback from your reports so far?
mthwsjc_ 5y ago
It's a great book, I really enjoyed it. I made some concise notes on each chapter on my blog https://johnmathews.is/mom-test.html https://johnmathews.is/mom-test.html
- ekulianova 5y ago
  That's helpful, thanks!
- jack335 5y ago
  These are really good notes as well thank you for sharing!
  - mthwsjc_ 5y ago
    you are welcome :)
crhutchins 5y ago
I definitely recommend reading this one. It helped me how to talk to my clients and also how to talk with other people. It totally changes your perspective and how you tackle conversations.
- jack335 5y ago
  Indeed. And you find yourself so often just talking about the wrong things instead of really looking at the problem.
chegra 5y ago
I did a summary of my own here: https://www.chestergrant.com/summary-the-mom-test-by-rob-fitzpatrick https://www.chestergrant.com/summary-the-mom-test-by-rob-fit... Well more like highlights that I found interesting. It is definitely on my top list of books for entrepreneurship. You should get a copy and read at least once a year, very insightful.
- jack335 5y ago
  That is a nice idea of a summary and highlights as well. I thought about visualising the final cheat sheet as well :)
heymax054 5y ago
I've been wondering on the pros and cons of interviewing customers vs. just putting something out there and seeing the reaction/getting a commitment. There's a great book about the latter called "The Right It" by Alberto Savoia (a guy who used to work at Google to test business ideas). There he describes 8 different ways to test a biz idea: - The Mechanical Turk – Replace complex and expensive computers or machines with human beings. - The Pinocchio – Build a non-functional, “lifeless”, version of the product. - The Minimum Viable Product (or Stripped Tease) – Create a functional version of it, but stripped down to its most basic functionality. - The Provincial – Before launching world-wide, run a test on a very small sample. - The Fake Door – Create a fake “entry” for a product that doesn’t yet exist in any form - The Pretend-to-Own – Before investing in buying whatever you need for your it, rent or borrow it first. - The Re-label – Put a different label on an existing product that looks like the product you want to create. A ques to the author (I saw he commented here). What do you think are the pros and cons of interviewing people using the MOM framework vs. just putting something out there and getting feedback? Often people give very different feedback when you ask them questions vs. present something and ask for skin in the game.
- robfitz 5y ago
  > pros and cons of interviewing people using the MOM framework I gave a fuller answer elsewhere in the thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28669204 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28669204), but it's highly reliant on the specifics of your idea/industry/bizmodel. B2C and '10x improvement' style ideas tend to need to lead with a prototype (although you ideally first do enough discovery conversations to understand what they're already doing and why). The early product iteration is what Uber got right and Segway got wrong, and it's why the best videogame studios (like Blizzard 10+ years ago) always begin with prototypes of isolated core game mechanics, iterating those ruthlessly until they feel "crunchy" (the game industry term for immediately rewarding interactions). Whereas ideas that are solving a well-defined, unsolved problem (which is way more common in niche B2B and the sorts of ideas that you'd bootstrap toward) can be pretty fully validated with ONLY conversation, which is obviously extremely quick and quite advantageous. Apart from those two big categories, there are a million edge cases where the whole suite of approaches you mention can feel like a (somewhat situational) superpower.
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golemotron 5y ago
It's tragic that we have to resort to these techniques because our culture has become so averse to offering honest feedback. It wasn't always this way.
decasia 5y ago
Some moms are software developers themselves. Without intending to, I do think that this title tends to reinforce the widespread assumption that programmers are men by default, while moms are, at most, "customers." A better title would just be "How to talk to customers." Meta comment: It's intellectually unfortunate that there's so much kneejerk hostility on HN to basic gender analysis. One's understanding of the world is enriched by thinking about how gender roles work, so the hostility to gender analysis is basically throwing away useful knowledge.
- etskinner 5y ago
  I think the author's intention was to give people a quick way to understand what they were talking about. I agree that it would have been better if they said "The Mom and Dad Test" or "The Parent Test". But I thought their analogy was very salient and I understood it quickly.
- wyager 5y ago
  The article is using “mom” as an example of a person who is supportive and uncritical of you, not as an example of someone who doesn’t know what’s going on.
- decasia 5y ago
  As a point of method: We can and should distinguish "What the author intended" from "what is the unintended side effect of this use of language." I'm explicitly not commenting on what the author intended to mean by this title choice (yes, a "person who is uncritically affirmative"). (I have absolutely no axe to grind with the author either, just for the record!) But generally speaking, it's fair to comment on the unintended side effects of someone's use of language, because there are always side effects when we use language. That's how language is -- it exceeds our intentions, because it's a legacy tool with generations of unexplored cultural baggage, to put it in an idiom that software folks might appreciate.
- enumjorge 5y ago
  > A better title would just be "How to talk to customers." Hard disagree. That title doesn’t capture the reader’s attention and it’s also less descriptive of the main point of the book.
ryanmarsh 5y ago
If you have no sales skills, asking if someone would by it or how much they’d pay merely soothes your ego. If you understand what the customer needs, the customer has money, and you know how to sell then you are going to make money. If you have no sales skills then no amount of assurance will result in sales. I met a young founder who had an obviously bad business plan. I asked if she had customers. She said “no, but businesses said they’d buy it”. I told her to go get a check from those customers, refundable if she didn’t deliver. Not one gave her money. I’m sorry that wake up call came so late in development for her.
b20000 5y ago
what is better than talking to customers is shutting up and watching them. they will tell you X and then do Y.
b20000 5y ago
this assumes that your business can only succeed if you solve a problem. you don’t need to solve a problem to make a lot of money. people buy things they don’t need all the time. all you need to do is make something they want and whether they want to pay for it. this might not need any conversation with customers at all.
foxbee 5y ago
We used the blueprint within this group to learn from 6000 signups. It led to us (Budibase) pivoting and saving countless hours and money, but most importantly, it's helped us reduce stress, build a better product, and deliver exactly what our users need. Huge appreciation - thank you! Joe (cofounder of Budibase)
mehphp 5y ago
Fantastic read, I highly recommend it if you are trying to talk to customers.
Folcon 5y ago
One useful thing about summaries for good high information density books like Rob's[0] is that they're a good way to help anchor information found in the book. Which will help you remember the key points in context. They also present you with alternative takes which can sometimes help in seeing the information from an alternative viewpoint which can also be really valuable. So from that perspective even though there's some ground covered by a summary, I don't think of them as a replacement for a well written book. -[0]: It's a good book, if you've not done so read it! http://momtestbook.com/ http://momtestbook.com/

469 points by jack335 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

iddan 5y ago

The mom test is the product validation book I get the most recommendations about. This is a lovely summary of it

jack335 5y ago
Yes me too. It was recommend so often that I thought creating a summary is a good idea ;-)

mlang23 5y ago

Although not quite the same, this reminds me of a very simple trick many blind people are taught during training on how to navigate the city: Never ever ask "Is this line 4" if you want to know which tram just arrived. Ask "which line is this?" Simply because the first version will make many people answer "yeah yeah" without even looking. The second version forces them to actually answer your question with something other then yes/no.

beebeepka 5y ago
Requiring a little effort makes quite a difference. Case in point: https://youtube.com/watch?v=n3AGpvV7KLI https://youtube.com/watch?v=n3AGpvV7KLI
jack335 5y ago
Oh wow sounds terrible to lie to a blind person but makes totally sense.
- WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
  It’s not much a lie, it’s more of a way to quickly get someone to sod off. Still a shitty move.
- Deestan 5y ago
  It's also misunderstanding the question, either due to being stuck in thought of due to ambient noise. Absent-mindedly understanding the question as "is this the train?" or something would not surprise me. A lot of people are also too afraid to say they don't understand or hear you, and will just go "yeah yeah". It's aggravating, but it's both real and no real ill intent behind it.
WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
Also if there is no PA on public transport vehicles that announces which line it is as it’s approaching the stop, and it’s a city, not a small town or village, it’s quite a shitty city to be living in. Consider moving elsewhere. If they can’t get their accessibility shit right, no way they’re going to have working snow plows in winter. Also the underground canals are gonna be so clogged that a mildly heavy rain will create fucking lakes and rivers on the streets.
- mlang23 5y ago
  I get your attitude, but I can't confirm. For one, I am not sure if you actually realize how much work it is to learn to navigate your environment blind in a city. Even if there is no PA, asking is a million times simpler then moving to another city, because, you know, if you move, you have to start all over again and will need at least a year until you can somewhat move freely in that new city again. Also, where I come from we are pretty used to snow. Its not quite far up north, but our snow plowing infrastructure works, and flooding isn't a common event either. So yeah, in general, I am on your side, I'd love to have a PA. But the truth is, in the two most largest cities in my country, there is none, so I have to resort to either knowing which line arrives where, or simply ask someone. I've gotten used to that. Also, I have a certain feeling that involving random strangers in accessibility issues is actually doing something for the society. It forces people to deal with the issues disabled people have.
jiggawatts 5y ago
This is a rule I heard for dealing with coworkers from some other backgrounds as well. In some cultures, the established norm is for junior staff to answer all boolean questions in the affirmative. As in: "Have you completed the task?" "Yes!" -- no matter what If instead you ask for a project completion sign-off document, you're forcing them to provide the answer you were actually looking for.
- moffkalast 5y ago
  Always ask string return questions, got it.
  - bronzecarnage 5y ago
    "Yes!"
- nsv 5y ago
  I've always found "what's your progress on X?" or "how much have you gotten done on X?" to be better questions than "are you done with X?".
alistairSH 5y ago
Also applies to buying used cars and other high value things. Has it been regularly serviced? Vs Where do you take it for service? What date was it’s last major service?
astrobe_ 5y ago
Can confirm from around 10 years of customer support experience. Never ask close-ended question (yes/no), but open-ended ones. That is "what is the color of the motherboard" instead of "is the motherboard blue?". As you and others pointed at out, this is a very general principle. It comes from the fact that close-ended questions sort of puts words in someone's mouth (the trick is sometimes used when you want a poll to yield a specific result).

rmnclmnt 5y ago

Nice read thanks! In the same vein of gathering good data and finding the resonating solution to customers problems, Small Data[1] by Martin Lindstrom is another great read with a sociological approach, focused on branding but nonetheless on entrepreneurship also. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Data https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Data

jack335 5y ago
Looks really interesting! Added it to my list, thanks :-)

bpodgursky 5y ago

The Mom Test, the entire book, is a couple hour read... honestly if you have any interest at all in selling or building (or simply work at a startup) it's worth reading the whole thing, and not a summarized recap... the book itself is summarized.

jack335 5y ago
You're completely right thats what I say as well. If you're interested in this topic, read it it is barely 140 pages long. But I think a summary can be a good intro and a good learning for me as well :-)

macando 5y ago

Best book on early stage startups period. And it's barely 100 pages long. My favorite quote from it: “Someone should definitely make an X!” “Have you looked for an X?” “No, why?” “There are like 10 different kinds of X.” “Well I didn't really need it anyway.” Long story short, that person is a complainer, not a customer. They’re stuck in the la-la-land of imagining they’re the sort of person who finds clever ways to solve the petty annoyances of their day.

jack335 5y ago
Exactly! I think it is q bit over 100 pages (140) but still really short. It was recommended so many times to me so I really wanted to make a short summary. The thing with separating complainers from customer is a great learning as well. If you just see complainers maybe the problem isn't that important ;)
- macando 5y ago
  Correct. It's 136p long. I remember it as no more than 85p. It's that good. > If you just see complainers maybe the problem isn't that important ;) Good point.
WalterBright 5y ago
I had a conversation in the 90s with an acquaintance: A: What the world really needs is a native Java compiler. That would be really great! You should write one. W: I wrote one for Symantec. You can buy it today. A: I don't want it.
- Torwald 5y ago
  He just wanted to be nice.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    I wasn't angry with him, or even annoyed. I simply learned long ago that people who don't have skin in the game rarely give good game advice. People pitch me all the time what programs I should write. I've written many products over the years, some were successes, others were failures. A common thread has emerged: all the failures were pitched by others. All the successes were ones I wrote to please myself, and everyone told me I was a unique snowflake and nobody else would want it and I would fail.

hbeckpdx 5y ago

Naming something "The Mom Test" in the current political environment is a choice.

khazhoux 5y ago
Is "is a choice" something the kids are saying these days? Never heard that expression. At any rate, at first I was worried that this was a sexist-agist reference, but in fact it's not at all. "Mom" is just used to represent someone who doesn't want to hurt your feelings.
- glenngillen 5y ago
  Yep. I thought the same thing originally, and then realized it's nothing of the sort. That I so quickly jumped to that assumption says more about me than the author :(
- jack335 5y ago
  Exactly in this case "Mom" just refers to a person who doesn't want to hurt your feelings and just tells you that every idea is awesome ;)
- klipt 5y ago
  The idea that mom (but not dad?) will lie to you in order not to hurt your feelings surely reflects biases about gender (aka sexism, albeit a mild form). The non biased version would use "parent" not "mom".
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
maxwellburson 5y ago
Why?
- michaelt 5y ago
  The risk hbeckpdx fears is: 1. Someone hasn't read the book and only glanced at the title. 2. That someone assumes the book says "test things on your mom, because there's nobody less tech-savvy than an older woman, yo momma so dumb she thinks a hamburger menu is something you get at McDonalds" 3. That someone, hoping to be an ally in the fight against gender and age discrimination in tech, takes offence at what they imagine the book says. 4. A mob of people who also haven't read the book destroy your career. Of course, we've got like 4 levels of hypothetical here - you're reading me, putting words into hbeckpdx's mouth, who is imagining an easily offended third party, who is imagining the contents of the book, which they imagine is offensive to a hypothetical mom. Whether you agree with hbeckpdx that this is a reasonable thing to fear is another question....

sseppola 5y ago

Talking to Humans is another great book in this genre. Short and succinct, with useful examples.

jack335 5y ago
Cool thanks will definitely take a look +1

mpbeauj 5y ago

From my experience, talking to customers in this weird screening, problem focused way is always very awkward - but then again, I've never found a real problem for people to solve so maybe it's just my ideas and the test worked.

robfitz 5y ago

Heya, author here. Fun to see this. I wrote the book after becoming hugely frustrated as an introverted technical founder trying to "talk to customers" but finding zero books about sales/interviews/etc that spoke to my context. That first company (yc s07) failed just as I started to figure it all out, but the casual approach proved useful (and comfortable) in my future businesses, so I wanted to document it for other folks like me. If it's helpful for anyone, I've been answering reader questions with little youtube videos that touch on some of the common misunderstanding and sticking points.[1] Also, back when covid started, I also did a short series (5x 5min videos) about adapting the approach to remote interviews.[2] [1] Q&A: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvHabB7atz2uWPZN5m7z3-8czZ_Q-TYoh https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvHabB7atz2uWPZN5m7z3... [2] Remote: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvHabB7atz2tOjQs1OMzjaDPziat0aVry https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvHabB7atz2tOjQs1OMzj...

jack335 5y ago
I think you really hit a frustration of many people :D Thanks for the book and your work Rob!
tmarice 5y ago
Looking forward to reading the book, looks great. Just a small technical issue: I just tried to buy the book on http://momtestbook.com/ http://momtestbook.com/ via Gumroad, and Chrome refuses to autofill the credit card number in the Gumroad widget because the site is http-only. I circumvented that by copying the link from the "Buy on Gumroad" button, but it might be hurting your sales. Consider adding SSL certificate or just make the button click open the Gumroad site.
- robfitz 5y ago
  You're totally right — it's one of those things that's always on the list but never feels like the day's top priority, and then one day you wake up and it's on HN and you feel like a dummy ;). Probably some sort of lesson for me to learn here. (If anyone else needs it, the direct/secure gumroad PDF link is https://gum.co/momtest https://gum.co/momtest, and the paperback/ebook are on Amazon.)

revorad 5y ago

Rob's book is fantastic. I remember reading a very early version when it first came out. I'm very pleased to see that it has steadily become more popular over the years. Another great new book on the same topic is Deploy Empathy by Michele Hansen. Michele goes even deeper with lots of practical tips, scripts, and templates. I highly recommend it, especially if you liked The Mom Test - https://deployempathy.com https://deployempathy.com.

jack335 5y ago
Cool will definitely add it to my list. Thanks!

lbriner 5y ago

There have been a handful of books like this that I think are so key and probably not very contraversial but then I see so many companies who fail because they don't approach things in this way - perhaps they don't know about the book, perhaps they think they know better etc. It would be great imho to replace the venerable but probably overpriced and ineffective MBA with a modern equivalent that takes on board the sort of training and experience you would get from places like YC, some of the well known investors etc. so that we would end up with something that we could say, "if you want to start a business, you really need to go on this course". It could be distance/part-time/whatever but it would ensure that business people have the correct skills and tools for the job so that they give themselves the biggest chance of success.

muzani 5y ago

The mom test is one of those books that have a lot of good advice. Most summaries are quite bad and led me to think the book itself was bad, but thankfully, this is a good one.

jack335 5y ago
Thank you for that! I really recommend reading the whole thing but I think a summary is really good to have as well. Rob did an awesome job here :)

tyroh 5y ago

I've actually added The Mom Test to my recommended reading list for direct reports, since it helps a lot in requirements gathers from both internal and external customers.

jack335 5y ago
That is a cool idea! How is the feedback from your reports so far?

mthwsjc_ 5y ago

It's a great book, I really enjoyed it. I made some concise notes on each chapter on my blog https://johnmathews.is/mom-test.html https://johnmathews.is/mom-test.html

ekulianova 5y ago
That's helpful, thanks!
jack335 5y ago
These are really good notes as well thank you for sharing!
- mthwsjc_ 5y ago
  you are welcome :)

crhutchins 5y ago

I definitely recommend reading this one. It helped me how to talk to my clients and also how to talk with other people. It totally changes your perspective and how you tackle conversations.

jack335 5y ago
Indeed. And you find yourself so often just talking about the wrong things instead of really looking at the problem.

chegra 5y ago

I did a summary of my own here: https://www.chestergrant.com/summary-the-mom-test-by-rob-fitzpatrick https://www.chestergrant.com/summary-the-mom-test-by-rob-fit... Well more like highlights that I found interesting. It is definitely on my top list of books for entrepreneurship. You should get a copy and read at least once a year, very insightful.

jack335 5y ago
That is a nice idea of a summary and highlights as well. I thought about visualising the final cheat sheet as well :)

heymax054 5y ago

I've been wondering on the pros and cons of interviewing customers vs. just putting something out there and seeing the reaction/getting a commitment. There's a great book about the latter called "The Right It" by Alberto Savoia (a guy who used to work at Google to test business ideas). There he describes 8 different ways to test a biz idea: - The Mechanical Turk – Replace complex and expensive computers or machines with human beings. - The Pinocchio – Build a non-functional, “lifeless”, version of the product. - The Minimum Viable Product (or Stripped Tease) – Create a functional version of it, but stripped down to its most basic functionality. - The Provincial – Before launching world-wide, run a test on a very small sample. - The Fake Door – Create a fake “entry” for a product that doesn’t yet exist in any form - The Pretend-to-Own – Before investing in buying whatever you need for your it, rent or borrow it first. - The Re-label – Put a different label on an existing product that looks like the product you want to create. A ques to the author (I saw he commented here). What do you think are the pros and cons of interviewing people using the MOM framework vs. just putting something out there and getting feedback? Often people give very different feedback when you ask them questions vs. present something and ask for skin in the game.

robfitz 5y ago
> pros and cons of interviewing people using the MOM framework I gave a fuller answer elsewhere in the thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28669204 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28669204), but it's highly reliant on the specifics of your idea/industry/bizmodel. B2C and '10x improvement' style ideas tend to need to lead with a prototype (although you ideally first do enough discovery conversations to understand what they're already doing and why). The early product iteration is what Uber got right and Segway got wrong, and it's why the best videogame studios (like Blizzard 10+ years ago) always begin with prototypes of isolated core game mechanics, iterating those ruthlessly until they feel "crunchy" (the game industry term for immediately rewarding interactions). Whereas ideas that are solving a well-defined, unsolved problem (which is way more common in niche B2B and the sorts of ideas that you'd bootstrap toward) can be pretty fully validated with ONLY conversation, which is obviously extremely quick and quite advantageous. Apart from those two big categories, there are a million edge cases where the whole suite of approaches you mention can feel like a (somewhat situational) superpower.

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golemotron 5y ago

It's tragic that we have to resort to these techniques because our culture has become so averse to offering honest feedback. It wasn't always this way.

decasia 5y ago

Some moms are software developers themselves. Without intending to, I do think that this title tends to reinforce the widespread assumption that programmers are men by default, while moms are, at most, "customers." A better title would just be "How to talk to customers." Meta comment: It's intellectually unfortunate that there's so much kneejerk hostility on HN to basic gender analysis. One's understanding of the world is enriched by thinking about how gender roles work, so the hostility to gender analysis is basically throwing away useful knowledge.

etskinner 5y ago
I think the author's intention was to give people a quick way to understand what they were talking about. I agree that it would have been better if they said "The Mom and Dad Test" or "The Parent Test". But I thought their analogy was very salient and I understood it quickly.
wyager 5y ago
The article is using “mom” as an example of a person who is supportive and uncritical of you, not as an example of someone who doesn’t know what’s going on.
decasia 5y ago
As a point of method: We can and should distinguish "What the author intended" from "what is the unintended side effect of this use of language." I'm explicitly not commenting on what the author intended to mean by this title choice (yes, a "person who is uncritically affirmative"). (I have absolutely no axe to grind with the author either, just for the record!) But generally speaking, it's fair to comment on the unintended side effects of someone's use of language, because there are always side effects when we use language. That's how language is -- it exceeds our intentions, because it's a legacy tool with generations of unexplored cultural baggage, to put it in an idiom that software folks might appreciate.
enumjorge 5y ago
> A better title would just be "How to talk to customers." Hard disagree. That title doesn’t capture the reader’s attention and it’s also less descriptive of the main point of the book.

ryanmarsh 5y ago

If you have no sales skills, asking if someone would by it or how much they’d pay merely soothes your ego. If you understand what the customer needs, the customer has money, and you know how to sell then you are going to make money. If you have no sales skills then no amount of assurance will result in sales. I met a young founder who had an obviously bad business plan. I asked if she had customers. She said “no, but businesses said they’d buy it”. I told her to go get a check from those customers, refundable if she didn’t deliver. Not one gave her money. I’m sorry that wake up call came so late in development for her.

b20000 5y ago

what is better than talking to customers is shutting up and watching them. they will tell you X and then do Y.

b20000 5y ago

this assumes that your business can only succeed if you solve a problem. you don’t need to solve a problem to make a lot of money. people buy things they don’t need all the time. all you need to do is make something they want and whether they want to pay for it. this might not need any conversation with customers at all.

foxbee 5y ago

We used the blueprint within this group to learn from 6000 signups. It led to us (Budibase) pivoting and saving countless hours and money, but most importantly, it's helped us reduce stress, build a better product, and deliver exactly what our users need. Huge appreciation - thank you! Joe (cofounder of Budibase)

mehphp 5y ago

Fantastic read, I highly recommend it if you are trying to talk to customers.

Folcon 5y ago

One useful thing about summaries for good high information density books like Rob's[0] is that they're a good way to help anchor information found in the book. Which will help you remember the key points in context. They also present you with alternative takes which can sometimes help in seeing the information from an alternative viewpoint which can also be really valuable. So from that perspective even though there's some ground covered by a summary, I don't think of them as a replacement for a well written book. -[0]: It's a good book, if you've not done so read it! http://momtestbook.com/ http://momtestbook.com/